Dumbing down: a slight rant

[jpmcbride]

Sorry, but I have to disagree on this one. There's nothing sacred about a particular version of a song. If the arrangement needs to be modified for the band to be able to perform it well, then I have no issue with it. I played in a duo for almost 10 years, starting when we were both relative beginners and we definitely modified song arrangements to work around our limitations as musicians. Maybe there were a few people in the audience judging us for it , but the rest of the audience was enjoying the music. We got lots of gigs, and people told us how much they loved the music. We got stage time, learned and got better, and entertained a lot of people.

My motto was "Its better to play it simple and good, than complicated and bad".

 

[pingvuiini]

I was briefly in a Pretenders tribute band and one of the songs was Tattooed Love Boys which has a weird kind of beat right off the the bat (I think it alternated between bars of 7/8 and 8/8 during the verse). The drummer found it difficult to handle and so everyone else wanted to make it 8/8 all the way thru to make it easier, but I wanted to do it the way it was recorded. Part of my reasoning was because the name of the band was the name of that song, and I felt if we were a tribute band named after a specific song we should play that song correctly. In the end I don't think we played it at all because the drummer couldn't handle the stops in the song either. Interestingly, the only person in the band that had tattoos was the girl singer/guitarist.

 

[BAG]

Always try and put yourself in a band with equal if not better musicians than you.

I much prefer to be the worst musician in a group..... it just makes me work harder to play well.

The few exceptions to the "Never Dumb Down" rule are when you are doing a completely novel version of a popular tune. This could be anything from a polka version of a rap tune to an up tempo version of a ballad. It is okay to cut to fit in that instance.

In my current project, which is predominantly acoustic guitar and cajon, we do a few metal songs where its been "dumbed down" and I don't mind as it suits the vibe of the song.

Sorry, but I have to disagree on this one. There's nothing sacred about a particular version of a song. If the arrangement needs to be modified for the band to be able to perform it well, then I have no issue with it.

My motto was "Its better to play it simple and good, than complicated and bad".

And I agree with this as well. With some groups it's better to play it well keeping the groove and play it bad.

 

[Funky Phantom]

Well, you’re playing the Beatles. Most non bass players who like them aren’t really into
rhthym, that’s why they like the Beatles. If they understood more syncopated grooves
you’d be playing James Brown, or T.O.P., or something.
In a guitar band, bass doesn’t really matter.

 

[lowphatbass]

“Dumbing down” is definitely a thing.

 

[kalle74]

I've gone through this with my previous band.

We wrote a song (the only one that really ever took off - small scale) in 7/8. The song had a breakdown where the song dropped dynamically to very soft, guitar-led quiet part into a build-up towards last chorus (a very original idea I guess you have never heard of...).

On the recorded version, this section of the song had the drummer lightly tapping on the ride, riding the cymbal dynamically with the chord-changes and lyrics. It sounded pretty good to me. Come mix-time, by BL's sole decision, the drummers contribution on this part was muted leaving the guitar totally alone. Also, my bassline - leading into a build-up, was cut off.

Guitarist had serious problems keeping the time, not only messing up timing but also time signature.
So, for a couple of months we played the song live, and drummer would tap on the hihat extremely lightly, almost more a visual cue than anything else, to help keep time in this quiet part of the song.

Later our BL, who wanted the live version to match recorded version more, wouldn't allow any help from the drummer, thus turning the part into an embarrassing train-wreck. So, after many tries to ease the situation for the guitar player (BL categorically rejected every suggestion) they decided (I was strongly against) to change the time signature of that part into 4/4, noting that nobody would pretty much notice (remember, the recording had some airplay at that moment, and this was pretty much our only "hit" and last song of the set).

Of course people noticed, and many fellow musicians commented on the change, citing that they liked the part better when it was 7/8. Also, they felt that changing the part dumbed down the build-up, and changed the tension that the part previously had. I agreed, and still do.

The funny part is, the BL also insested that changing minute details on (other) songs would totally destroy them, and they had to be learned almost note-to-note.

 

[2cooltoolz]

Not everyone is rhythmically gifted

If you read music and work with people that read music,...
There are talented musicians that don't read and are worth the headache.

I came up through school band. Also playing in school "bands". (stone ages). I don't expect people in the cover band level I'm resolved to at 66 to be able to read. But, I don't understand how an adult can play 30 years and not know how to count. Since I "came back" about 10 years ago, I have tried to teach at least a dozen "semi-pro" musicians, including "my" current guitar player, who is a guitar teacher for that chain, how to count. It's the only thing I like about (most) keyboard players!

(Not to be too depricating to "my" guitar player. He's one of those people who can play anything. Our singer is big on "teaching the guys" a requested song, for a big tip. On break, she'll google the lyrics (also pretty encyclopedic, tune-wise). I'll run for a quiet place, and youtube it on my phone to learn it. The GP will just sit there on stage, and "play" it in his head, and get it. The drummer goes for a beer and comes back, "How's it start?" Most times, it's passable.)

 

[JakobT]

Always try and put yourself in a band with equal if not better musicians than you.

I usually have no problem whatsoever doing that, but unfortunately, the better you are as a musician, the more difficult it’s going to be.

 

[Lagado]

I usually have no problem whatsoever doing that, but unfortunately, the better you are as a musician, the more difficult it’s going to be.

That's why I've joined 'Lazy Jim's Cack-Handed Blues Band'. I hear the guitarist has learned all the pentalonic scales.

 

[Lagado]

"I said, "even though you know what you know
I know that I'm ready to leave
'Cause you're making me feel like I've never been born..."

 

[murph7489]

great thread here...ha ha. My band ( no its not my band but I'm going to use that terminology despite the obvious misuse of the phrase) decided to play radar love..well, we all practiced it and got to rehearsal and low n behold a couple guys are struggling with the beginning of the song..So, like a fool I open my mouth and say the reason you are having trouble with this is because you are not counting it properly. This song is a little different in that it starts on the 3rd beat of the first bar. Now everyone is looking at me as if I had just spoken in a language only used in a remote rain forest jungle by natives..lol

Truthfully when I went to learn the song by listening to it on youtube, I found it difficult to pick up by ear the start of the song and the correct way its done so I hunted down the sheet music and boom it was simple and easy after that, now granted I was in school band throughout my entire school life and went to college for music as well and I understand that while this stuff is simple to me others don't have that knowledge because they play by ear and just have never learned reading or any theory..It should be noted that this shortcoming doesn't mean they can't play extremely well because the ones in my band that don't read can play lights out. However one guitar player refused to listen to my explanation and told me two years later he still doesn't understand how a song would start on 3 and that counting it is ridiculous...ha ha..but he could play it..so, whatever works I guess..when I have any trouble figuring out something with my part in a song I always fall back to the sheet music..never go wrong!

As for dumbing down a song or playing it some alternative way because someone can't play it the correct way...hell no.. its one thing if you are changing a song on purpose to make it your own through artistry but its another if you are just incapable of playing it correctly..

 

[andrus108]

Do your band mates listen to music with tempo changes and / or do they want to play that kind of stuff?

In the band I am a reserve bass player for (still, I think), the guitar player writes tunes with tempo changes. Sure, I learned them, but to me playing them felt, and I emphasize 'felt', like constantly starting and stopping when switching between parts; I do not enjoy playing like that. So in that regard, I would be the guy that wants to 'dumb' down the music, when really I just want to play straight beat for other reasons beside being simple.

I know the world of rock / metal is now full of it, everyone wants to be Tool / nu prog djent core, and big part of that music is never writing in straight 4/4, but maybe that's the reason you have kids just standing at these shows. How do you jump or clap to 3/4, then 15/17, then 32/89, all within 2 minute intro?

 

[Lagado]

I much prefer to be the worst musician in a group..... it just makes me work harder to play well.

That's the idea.

 

[lfmn16]

No, no and hell no. Although I might consider it if someone couldn't play a part, 99.99% of the time, in my experience anyway, people are just too lazy to learn the part. I always start out nice, but if someone just doesn't learn the part week after week I can get unpleasant. If someone doesn't want to learn the song, be a man and say so, but don't put me to the trouble to learn the and then not learn it yourself.

 

[40Hz]

Always try and put yourself in a band with equal if not better musicians than you.

^This.

 

[40Hz]

I don’t insist on tribute band level note for note when it comes to a cover tune. Nor do I object to putting your own stylistic spin on someone else’s song. That can result in some pleasant surprises if it’s done right, the key word being: if.

But changing the basic structure of a song (including one of your own) purely because your band is too lazy to learn an arrangement?

No. Just no.

You’re not being a grumpy old man not wanting to dumb things down. You’re showing a little pride and self-respect as a musician refusing to go along with it.

 

[40Hz]

No, no and hell no. Although I might consider it if someone couldn't play a part, 99.99% of the time, in my experience anyway, people are just too lazy to learn the part. I always start out nice, but if someone just doesn't learn the part week after week I can get unpleasant. If someone doesn't want to learn the song, be a man and say so, but don't put me to the trouble to learn the and then not learn it yourself.

Agree. I’d rather 86 a song than butcher it. I’ve had to insist on that point with a few bands I’ve been in over the years. Even to the point of 86ing myself from one of them where getting songs right was an ongoing problem due to simple laziness.

 

[lfmn16]

Agree. I’d rather 86 a song than butcher it. I’ve had to insist on that point with a few bands I’ve been in over the years. Even to the point of 86ing myself from one of them where getting songs right was an ongoing problem due to simple laziness.

I'm with you. I joined a band and they did this awful and embarrassing version of Folsom Prison Blues with a screaming, rambling, completely inappropriate guitar solo. I tried to tactfully talk to them about it several times, suggesting that we might try to do it closer to the original. The guitar player was on board, but the drummer kept resisting and when it was on the set list for our first job I finally had to put my foot down and told them I wasn't going to play it as-is. The drummer started whining and moaning and asking what the problem was. When I saw that being nice wasn't going to work I finally said, "Because our version sucks, it's embarrassingly awful and I'm not going to look like an A-- Hole in front of a room of people." Sometimes you just have to put your foot down.

 

[dan1952]

I work pretty often with an otherwise really good drummer who can't find "1" going into the bridge on "Badge."
I finally gave up on trying to do "Badge" if he is the drummer.

 

[CGremlin]

I'm of mixed views on this. If you want to do a completely alternative arrangement of a tune that's it's own thing, then fine, I will go along with that. But, if you're wanting to be ambitious and perform something like "YYZ" or "Cupid's Dead", it's a technical showcase and I won't work well with other folks that aren't willing to put the time in to get it right. It's really frustrating to be cringing the whole time you're playing, and I'd rather just not do the tune at all if it's just going to be a train wreck.