E to Emaj9 question

[wolffire99]

At church we're doing a cover of Auld Lang Syne (with hymn lyrics) in E. Anyway. The first two
Chords of the verse are E to Emaj9

............E....................Emaj9
Should auld acquaintance be forgot
.......C#m...................A
And never brought to mind

My ear is telling me to play the major 7th on the Emaj9 (D#). But our keyboard player gave me a weird look and then said to stay on the E. He's a professional so I just went with his advice but every time we play it I have to fight my ear to stay on the E.

Is it weird, in this context to play a maj7 on a maj9 chord?

 

[Mushroo]

It's not weird at all to play a D# on Emaj9. But it may sound weird for the bass player to be the one playing it; if someone else is playing an E in a higher octave, it would set up a minor 9th interval, which can be one of the harshest sounds in music. Keyboardists are experts in how to "voice" chords, so his advice is worth listening to. That said, I think it could sound nice to touch on the D# briefly as a passing note to C#.

If the composer/arranger wants the bass player to play D#, then they will use a "slash" chord like this: Emaj9/D# (the note name after the slash is the bass note).

The reason you are probably "hearing" a D# is that many arrangements of "Auld Lang Syne" go to the V chord there. So I'm sure you have heard arrangements of that song that would have (in the key of E) the chord B/D# at that moment (B major with D# in the bass).

 

[InhumanResource]

Agreed that it could sound nice in your bassline, especially if your lick resolves to the tonic "E." You probably don't want to just hang on that D# though (it also depends on what the rest of the harmony is doing at that moment). I'm wondering what the keyboard player is doing with his left hand. Keyboardists kind of get a rep for stepping on the bass's range. If he's voicing it with an E down low and you play that D# down in the same range, it's gonna sound ugly.

 

[Jay Corwin]

The major 7th is there in the chord, but it depends how you are getting to the C#m from there.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

.......My ear is telling me to play the major 7th on the Emaj9 (D#). But our keyboard player gave me a weird look and then said to stay on the E. He's a professional so I just went with his advice but every time we play it I have to fight my ear to stay on the E.

If you are playing in a "Praise band" just using roots, which most Praise music does - then yes just play the root E for both of them. I catch the root and leave the extension to the keyboard. Roots with an occasional chromatic run - if no one else has laid claim to that space is Praise bass in East Texas.

My point - you and the drummer working together is just a know fact, however you and the keyboard need to share the bass clef space and work together. I catch the root and Sallie getting the rest of the chord seems to work out for us.

All that said Auld Lang Syne is not what I would call Praise, however, what I said about working with the drummer AND the keyboard still apply. No need in fighting over turf. The music suffers.

My two cents.

 

[BassChuck]

Check to see that the keyboard player isn't playing an E really low. If so, that might not sound too good with the D# (which is a good note to play there).

Two side notes IMHO opinion here:
1.) Keyboard players will take all the sonic territory that they can if you don't call them on it. You should have 'right of way' on the low end and sometimes you just have to work to keep it, especially if the keys player is more of a solo player than band member.

2.) Lots of the keyboard factory patches have been programmed to make a keyboard sound great all by itself. This is a legitimate marketing policy. BUT in a band setting especially with multiple keyboard the low end of the EQ can get really full. Band leaders and sound guys will take that out on the bass player when in fact the low end of the keys should be rolled off.

 

[Groove Master]

At church we're doing a cover of Auld Lang Syne (with hymn lyrics) in E. Anyway. The first two
Chords of the verse are E to Emaj9

............E....................Emaj9
Should auld acquaintance be forgot
.......C#m...................A
And never brought to mind

My ear is telling me to play the major 7th on the Emaj9 (D#). But our keyboard player gave me a weird look and then said to stay on the E. He's a professional so I just went with his advice but every time we play it I have to fight my ear to stay on the E.

Is it weird, in this context to play a maj7 on a maj9 chord?

To me it sounds like the harmony is based on a E pedal with a triad of E going to a B triad with a E bass. If you play something else then E, the pedal effect is gone. You can play around the E major scale but your focus should be on E more then anything else.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Chords of the verse are E to Emaj9

Let's take a look at that Emaj9 chord. It's a slash chord - G#(Ab)m7/E followed by C#m.
It's possible that I COULD (only!) COULD (it's not MY VISION, it's the keyboard player's arrangement) try to play G# with that Emaj9 chord.
What's more that G# is the 5th of that following C#m chord - from the dominant (V), to the tonic- TEMPORARY- (I) scale degree - to C# in the bass with the B note to join the last A (A7) chord.

 

[Groove Master]

At church we're doing a cover of Auld Lang Syne (with hymn lyrics) in E. Anyway. The first two
Chords of the verse are E to Emaj9

............E....................Emaj9
Should auld acquaintance be forgot
.......C#m...................A
And never brought to mind

My ear is telling me to play the major 7th on the Emaj9 (D#). But our keyboard player gave me a weird look and then said to stay on the E. He's a professional so I just went with his advice but every time we play it I have to fight my ear to stay on the E.

Is it weird, in this context to play a maj7 on a maj9 chord?

Ok I think I understand what happened !
You probably played the D# the whole bar or so?
Play it on the 3rd or 4th beat then, it should be fine because you are connecting the E chord to the C#min with a nice diatonic passing-tone. Playing a major 7h in the bass can be very dissonant with the E root played on the left-hand of the piano player.
You are creating a half-step with his left-hand or even worst: a minor ninth interval, the most dissonant interval in music! If it is just a quick passing-tone, it should be fine but again the register, the tempo and the orchestration or voicings are all parts of the resulting music.
USE YOUR EARS !!!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Ok I think I understand what happened !
You probably played the D# the whole bar or so?
Play it on the 3rd or 4th beat then, it should be fine because you are connecting the E chord to the C#min with a nice diatonic passing-tone. Playing a major 7h in the bass can be very dissonant with the E root played on the left-hand of the piano player.
You are creating a half-step with his left-hand or even worst: a minor ninth interval, the most dissonant interval in music! If it is just a quick passing-tone, it should be fine but again the register, the tempo and the orchestration or voicings are all parts of the resulting music.
USE YOUR EARS !!!

For some reason, I think that the bass moving from E to G# with Emaj9 would sound better. It would create that "standardize" movement from E as I to G# as 3rd to "imaginary" A, but instead of going to C#m
I doubt that the keyboard player's intention was a bass-line E - D# - C#...

 

[Groove Master]

For some reason, I think that the bass moving from E to G# with Emaj9 would sound better. It would create that "standardize" movement from E as I to G# as 3rd to "imaginary" A, but instead of going to C#m
I doubt that the keyboard player's intention was a bass-line E - D# - C#...

My point is to explain why the bass player got that "look" from the piano player here.

Yeah I agree with the cycle of fifth motion from G# to C# but B to C# would also be good, so is the descending D# to C# (very common in pop for the last 40 years) or E to C#.

The main thing is that Bass is there to support Harmony, not to cloud it ;-)

BTW: This is the worst "look" for any bass player out there LOL

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The main thing is that Bass is there to support Harmony, not to cloud it

Here is my logic behind that Emaj9 as the slash chord, G#m7/E.
At first, there is just a simple E major triad followed by E major but with added notes 9th (and maj7 included).
My first reaction would be this, "With the same root, E, I was told to embellish that E major chord; therefore, I must go/slide to that F# on the G string to emphasize Emaj9 (that should be the reason for changing E to Emaj9).
Now, it's a little bit ambiguous and confusing. What's more, I really expected the dominant B chord, but...

The arranger decided to re-harmonize the chords in Verse. It's OK with me.
Just a small detail missing.
If the keyboard player has written that Emaj9 as G#m7/E - in the bass, I would say, "Ah, now I got it."
Even if the bass remains on E - a pedal note, there is a harmonic MOVEMENT, and I as a bassist don't need to thing too much what to play.
My logic about that D# note.
Yes, D# is possible but NOT in that particular and special harmonic structure that we have from the OP's comment.
That Emaj9 as G#m7/E is ALREADY a substitute for the "expected" dominant chord.
If I stay on E, it's a pedal note, and it should be OK.
If I play G#, that's the arranger's re-harmonizing intention - Why Not?
If I play other notes like, D#, the re-harmonization intention gets too "cloudy", at least for me. The song is not from Miles Davis' "soul vault". It's an old and simple folk song.

 

[Groove Master]

Here is my logic behind that Emaj9 as the slash chord, G#m7/E.
At first, there is just a simple E major triad followed by E major but with added notes 9th (and maj7 included).
My first reaction would be this, "With the same root, E, I was told to embellish that E major chord; therefore, I must go/slide to that F# on the G string to emphasize Emaj9 (that should be the reason for changing E to Emaj9).
Now, it's a little bit ambiguous and confusing. What's more, I really expected the dominant B chord, but...

The arranger decided to re-harmonize the chords in Verse. It's OK with me.
Just a small detail missing.
If the keyboard player has written that Emaj9 as G#m7/E - in the bass, I would say, "Ah, now I got it."
Even if the bass remains on E - a pedal note, there is a harmonic MOVEMENT, and I as a bassist don't need to thing too much what to play.
My logic about that D# note.
Yes, D# is possible but NOT in that particular and special harmonic structure that we have from the OP's comment.
That Emaj9 as G#m7/E is ALREADY a substitute for the "expected" dominant chord.
If I stay on E, it's a pedal note, and it should be OK.
If I play G#, that's the arranger's re-harmonizing intention - Why Not?
If I play other notes like, D#, the re-harmonization intention gets too "cloudy", at least for me. The song is not from Miles Davis' "soul vault". It's an old and simple folk song.

Sorry Who but it is way too complicated.

There is no need to see a Emaj9 chord as a slash chord in this situation and using a D# in the bass line as a connection between E and C# is NOT a reharmonization, just a nice melodic descending line using the simplest path, that's all there is. The problem from the OP is that he was playing the D# too long or too close to the root on the piano and was clashing with the piano.

Playing a Major 7th in the bass is the hardest note to play IMO without any kind of clash with the voicings.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Sorry Who but it is way too complicated.

There is no need to see a Emaj9 chord as a slash chord in this situation and using a D# in the bass line as a connection between E and C# is NOT a reharmonization, just a nice melodic descending line using the simplest path, that's all there is. The problem from the OP is that he was playing the D# too long or too close to the root on the piano and was clashing with the piano.

Playing a Major 7th in the bass is the hardest note to play IMO without any kind of clash with the voicings.

Yes, you are correct. If we take a standard chord progression - E/Emaj7 l C#m... It is the perfect and fundamental bass-line E D# C#....

IMHO, the Emaj9 chord is a Substitute for the Dom chord; therefore, I wouldn't recommend any more Substitute for Substitute.
Instead of the Dom chord, the arranger re-harmonized to G#m7.
It's my final answer. Could the OP ask the keyboard player?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. As always, I've invested TOO much time and even got "emotional" about that Emaj9 question; therefore, I've listened to MANY different versions of that song, and I think I have an answer.

It's not the OP's keyboard player's IDEA of re-harmonizing the song. The keyboard player just simple "borrowed" it from Susan Boyle's version.
(And now you know the rest of the story!)
Susan's version is in D.

 

[dreamadream99]

the harmony is based on a E pedal with a triad of E going to a B triad with a E bass.

Groove Master is right.
The traditional chord in bar 2 is B. The arranger here wants a B/E chord in bar 2--he just notated it as Emaj9 instead.
Keep the E pedal. Piano and guitar will play the B.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The arranger here wants a B/E chord in bar 2--he just notated it as Emaj9 instead.

The answer is WRONG.
The arranger wants a NEW CHORD called, G#m7/E not a B/E chord.
Check Susan's version just above your posting.

 

[Febs]

Regardless of whether the arranger had in mind a B/E or G#min/E, or something else, the simpler answer to the OP's question is that if the keyboard player is playing an E in the left hand, a D# in the bass has the potential to clash, especially if it's in the same register as the keyboard's E. It's easy enough to avoid this by listening to what the keyboard player is playing, watching his hands, and/or talking to him about how he's voicing the chord.

 

[Groove Master]

The answer is WRONG.
The arranger wants a NEW CHORD called, G#m7/E not a B/E chord.
Check Susan's version just above your posting.

But Who it is the same thing: It is a E pedal with either a third in the voicing (G#min7) or not (B), but the result is a E pedal over 2 triads-E and B. Also in pop music, triads are preferred over 4 to 5 parts chords to create the same kind of "sound".

If the original chord is a sort of B dominant in the 2nd bar, it makes sense to hear a D# in the bass or a B, but it is not the intention here IMHO.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But Who it is the same thing: It is a E pedal with either a third in the voicing (G#min7) or not (B), but the result is a E pedal over 2 triads-E and B

(P.S. I'm not talking how BEAUTIFUL or how LAME that re-harmonization of the B dom chord to G#m7 chord is in the old folk song.)

Also, thank you very much for your answers.

The bass-line - an E pedal but there is a very tiny(!) aural difference between the B and G#m chord.
It's that pronounced MINOR sound in Susan's version that separates the B chord from G#m7, otherwise known as B6 chord (third inversion).
It's that CLEARLY heard harmonic movement (0:16 Susan Boyle's video) from E major to G#m that I stupidly arguing.

Here is a beautiful version of that song by Sissel where we have the same E pedal in the bass in the beginning.
Also, check the bass movement at 1:18 - Eb C F Bb
At 3:11, the bass-line clearly goes with our standard template (after the modulation to F) -
F E D C Bb ...