Eb Major scale starting on G?

[Spidey2112]

Gm is not GM

A Major observation, on your part... thanks for sharing...

 

[Sparkl]

If you take the Eb major scale (three flats) but start on the G (third note in Eb major scale) what would you call that scale?

Some kind of Gm7 ?

It's chord would be Gm7, the scale over that Gm7 in Eb would be G phrygian.

Edit:

My way of looking at chords over scales is based on harmony knowledge anyways. I don't try to memorise what certain mode says and what chord it goes to.

I look at phrygian and realise it is basically just a minor scale with a b2. b2 = b9 so the chord could be made up of that. Since it's core is a minor (you have all the necessary "ingredients", a b7 and a b3, also b6), a common way of seeing it would be to play a Gm7 chord and add a b9 on the top.

 

[Sparkl]

Anything that doesn't clash with that gnarly minor second that OF COURSE I'm going to play in the bassline cuz I'm the hippest.

The pianist could play a Gm7b9 and be rid with it.

 

[Cowboy in Latvia]

A Major observation, on your part... thanks for sharing...

Subtle, I like it.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

The pianist could play a Gm7b9 and be rid with it.

A Gm7(b9) is not a common chord in any normal situations.

 

[Sparkl]

A Gm7(b9) is not a common chord in any normal situations.

It is very common if you play phrygian over it. Or vice versa.

Edit:

Also, I don't get what you mean by a minor7b9 chord not being a chord common in any normal situation. It is a perfectly normal III.-7 chord of any major scale therefore very much playable over III VI II V runs. Sure, players don't opt for it often for its b2 in its scale making it indeed an uncommon chord but if you take your diatonic harmony seriously than the only true 5 part chord in the III. degree in a major key is indeed a minor7b9 chord.

 

[Vertigo Jones]

The simplest, least confusing answer to your question is that the Eb Major scale starting from G can perfectly well still be called Eb Major. You don't need "modes" to play songs like "Mary Had a Little Lamb," which starts on the 3rd of the major scale, or "Happy Birthday," which starts on the 5th.

Ah, but that all depends on...wait for it.....wait for it......the bass player! It's ultimately the bassist who determines what mode Mary Had A Little Lamb is in. That's the power of the bass, baby!

 

[Spidey2112]

Subtle, I like it.

I can do subtle... just not that often.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

It is very common if you play phrygian over it. Or vice versa.
Also, I don't get what you mean by a minor7b9 chord not being a chord common in any normal situation. It is a perfectly normal III.-7 chord of any major scale therefore very much playable over III VI II V runs. Sure, players don't opt for it often for its b2 in its scale making it indeed an uncommon chord but if you take your diatonic harmony seriously than the only true 5 part chord in the III. degree in a major key is indeed a minor7b9 chord.

Any decent chordplayer would avoid to add the b9 as a chord tone when he/she plays a minor 7th chord (here: avoid the Ab as a chord tone when he/she plays a Gmi7 in Eb) (and in all common situations. Finale/Sibelius/iReal don't even have a chord symbol for it, and I have never seen it in writing (and I have played a lot of written music)). That doesn't mean you can't use it in a melody or improvisation, of course.

 

[Slevage]

A Major observation, on your part... thanks for sharing...

A minor detail

 

[Sparkl]

Any decent chordplayer would avoid to add the b9 when he/she plays a minor 7th chord (here: avoid the Ab as a chord tone when he/she plays a Gmi7 in Eb) (and in all common situations. Finale/Sibelius/iReal don't even have a chord symbol for it, and I have never seen it in writing (and I have played a lot of written music)). That doesn't mean you can't use it in a melody or improvisation, of course.

I repeat, in strict diatonic harmony, a minor7b9 chord is the only acceptable 5part (this is important to emphasize) chord in a III. degree of a major key. In different genres you have different deviations from this fact. I agree with you that it is an uncommon chord in that sense. In strict diatonic harmony it is a very common chord. If you want to pick a mother chord to play phrygian scale over and want to emphasize the phrygian sound in chord alone, the minor7b9 is a very very viable choice. Of course, a simple minor7 will also do, but its worth keeping in mind that you owe that chord a b2 melody wise should you ever decide to play a 2nd in the melody line.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

I repeat, in strict diatonic harmony, a minor7b9 chord is the only acceptable 5part (this is important to emphasize) chord in a III. degree of a major key. In different genres you have different deviations from this fact. I agree with you that it is an uncommon chord in that sense. In strict diatonic harmony it is a very common chord. If you want to pick a mother chord to play phrygian scale over and want to emphasize the phrygian sound in chord alone, the minor7b9 is a very very viable choice. Of course, a simple minor7 will also do, but its worth keeping in mind that you owe that chord a b2 melody wise should you ever decide to play a 2nd in the melody line.

Feel free to show me one example of this chord in normal use. Take your time.

 

[Spidey2112]

A minor detail

I knew there was a sense of humor in there, somewhere... .

 

[inanimate_carb]

Feel free to show me one example of this chord in normal use. Take your time.

I'm also waiting.

 

[Mark Ambler]

And, very often, phrygian mode is played with a major 3rd: G - Ab - B - C - D - Eb - F - G. You can use a G7(b9) and also add a b13.

Yep, that's the 5th mode of the Harmonic minor scale also known as 'Phrygian Dominant'.

 

[mcnach]

Gm is not GM

No humour left

edit: oh there was, a bit, later

 

[DavC]

it is still a E flat scale ... Modes are modes , which relate to the intervals of the scale notes when it starts on a different note other than 1 / root ...

being a pianist firstly for 54 yrs ... a variety of chords would work and sound fine ... whatever best fits the song/melody ... E flat w/G bass , E flat major 7 w/G bass , Gm , Gm7 , etc , etc ...

 

[FenderTwin]

I Didn't read the whole thread but here is a summery of modes for a major scale.

... remember when I state a key range such as C - C or F - F, we are in the Key of Eb major so you still have to flatten your Bb's, Eb's, and Ab's.

Tonic - Tonic (Eb - Eb ) = Ionian Mode
Super tonic - Supertonic (F - F) = Dorian Mode
Mediant - Mediant (G - G) = Phyrigian Mode
Subdominant - Subdominant (Ab - Ab) = Mixedolydian Mode
Dominant - Dominant (Bb - Bb) = Lydian Mode
Submedient - Submedient (C -C) = Aeolian or natural minor mode
Leading tone to Leading tone (D - D) = Locryian mode.

To make a a natural minor scale a harmonic minor scale you raise the 7th notes by 1 semitone ascending and descending and to make a natural minor a melodic minor scale you raise the 6th and 7th notes by 1 semitone ascending and lower them back 1 semitone descending.

Fender Twin

 

[InhumanResource]

The pianist could play a Gm7b9 and be rid with it.

Yep they could.

 

[InhumanResource]

it is still a E flat scale ... Modes are modes , which relate to the intervals of the scale notes when it starts on a different note other than 1 / root ...

being a pianist firstly for 54 yrs ... a variety of chords would work and sound fine ... whatever best fits the song/melody ... E flat w/G bass , E flat major 7 w/G bass , Gm , Gm7 , etc , etc ...

And so sanity finally prevails.

As always, the answer is whatever sounds good against the melody! And if the bassist wants to get called back, they will support that good sounding harmony with a good sounding bassline.