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Now I know what I'm doing wrongFor example, In Stella, I would use a b2 in the first chord. In fact, b2 or b9 is widely used, IMO. Maybe I've misunderstood you?
The b9 in a phrygian chord in cases of 3625 turnarounds for example. Diatonically, the III. in a major key should be III.-7b9 in its full sound but jazz usually strictly avoids b9 in this case.
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@Mushroo but this is a confusing and not proper perspective of viewing things in this case.
A mode is just a fancy name for the same scale being played from a different degree. It is actually way more productive to learn these so called modes through functional harmony as it is the whole point of this thing. The whole idea of a mode consists of having certain sequence of tones in every scale. If you harmonise these tones also called degrees in chords (by using the same tones of a scale) you will get certain chord values. These chords are also representing a certain mode in a scale. And with these chords, you can use them in a sequence to land to a certain chord in that scale/key or to the root most of the time. These sequences are called cadences and this type of harmony is called diatonic harmony (fancy name for all notes that reside in a certain scale).
What is important here is that you realise that you are just turning the scale around but it is THE SAME SCALE. So G phrygian, Bb mixolydian, Ab lydian, D locrian etc., these are all just Eb major and nothing else.
Edit: To add, most of the old jazz legends will tell you the same thing, ask Barry Harris
A mode is just a fancy name for the same scale being played from a different degree. It is actually way more productive to learn these so called modes through functional harmony as it is the whole point of this thing. The whole idea of a mode consists of having certain sequence of tones in every scale. If you harmonise these tones also called degrees in chords (by using the same tones of a scale) you will get certain chord values. These chords are also representing a certain mode in a scale. And with these chords, you can use them in a sequence to land to a certain chord in that scale/key or to the root most of the time. These sequences are called cadences and this type of harmony is called diatonic harmony (fancy name for all notes that reside in a certain scale).
What is important here is that you realise that you are just turning the scale around but it is THE SAME SCALE. So G phrygian, Bb mixolydian, Ab lydian, D locrian etc., these are all just Eb major and nothing else.
Edit: To add, most of the old jazz legends will tell you the same thing, ask Barry Harris
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We do not understand each other obviously.
One of the questions was:
If the whole tune or a whole part of it is written to be played in phrygian mode the piano player has every reason to include that b9 in there in one form or another if he wants to. And that's what I want to point out.
After this it depends on genre and the composers goals. If he wants that -7b9 in a cadence or wherever, a musician plays it. It's that simple.
That would be it basically
In a strictly diatonic sense of course. Music doesn't always play to these rules though.Sure, but if you play a G phrygian and just call it Eb phrygian, you are completely missing the key you're playing in.
A G phrygian is Eb major and that's it really.
If you want to be really exact you have to say variations of a mother scale. In which case we have three mother scales (in jazz language also called "material" )from which all modes in western music derive: Major scale, Harmonic Minor scale and Melodic Minor scale.
Dolphin Dance and Green Dolphin Street of the top of my head. Very common in jazz as others have pointed out.
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What is important here is that you realise that you are just turning the scale around but it is THE SAME SCALE. So G phrygian, Bb mixolydian, Ab lydian, D locrian etc., these are all just Eb major and nothing else.
Edit: To add, most of the old jazz legends will tell you the same thing, ask Barry Harris
Not a bit of it. I won't go into a long derail, but true modal music has no need for functional harmony. Each mode has its own melodic system of resolution that has no need for harmony and is wholly independent of any parent scale or tonal key. Modes of Ionian are absolutely not Ionian from a different perspective.
Rant over. Carry on...
Actually, in interviews Carol Kaye has said that in the jazz circles she hung around in, if a musician didn't pay attention to the chord changes in a tune and just played around scales and didn't work through the chords the others would say to each other "He just plays scales," and avoid informing him of hip jam sessions.
Of course. But thats an upgraded way of thinking. I am solely leaning on diatonic harmony for this threads purpose. And I still stand by my statement that it is easier to understand modes by learning them through harmony.
An example of a minor 7 b9 is the first chord in Stella by Stardust, but it is Locrian rather than Phrygian.
Just a joke about that Phrygian dominant.
Many decades ago, I had a gig at some wedding party and while playing "Hava Nagila" (an example of the Phrygian dominant scale that you are talking about) instead of moving to 4 in the third measure, I jokingly decided to play b2 in the bass.
The keyboard player went nuts. He was from our local/regional conservatory and already reckoned as some "future-famous-composer".
And since then, for decades(!) when we met at some parties, gatherings he would yell to everybody that I had played that b2 in the bass.
