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Eb Major scale starting on G?

#81
MichelD said:
If you take the Eb major scale (three flats) but start on the G (third note in Eb major scale) what would you call that scale? Some kind of Gm7 ?
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Lot of answers happened while I was writing this. We all are saying the same thing. Just using different words.

Eb major scale = Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D
started on the G -........G, Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb, F

1. It still has all the notes of the Eb scale. So it is still the Eb major scale. You just started on the G. That did not change the scale. Hang on....
2. If you are trying to make this a mode of the Eb major scale then you have the G Phrygian mode.
3. Prove it. Well G scale is G, A, B, C, D, E, F#. Phrygian will have a 2, 3, 6 & 7 that is flatted. If we flat the 2, 3, 6 & 7 of the G major scale we get. G, Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb, F. Or the Eb major scale started on the G. So.....??? All that modal stuff is a lot of something that has nothing to do with your question...

MichelD, this thread is so mixed up already, forget about what mode it could be. Be satisfied that your scale is still the Eb scale and move on...

Good luck.
 
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#85
MichelD said:
Actually, in interviews Carol Kaye has said that in the jazz circles she hung around in, if a musician didn't pay attention to the chord changes in a tune and just played around scales and didn't work through the chords the others would say to each other "He just plays scales," and avoid informing him of hip jam sessions.
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I apologize for putting a joke referencing Blazing Saddles on your post. I always joke that as bassists we don't know or need to know what the chords are, even though I do have two degrees in jazz performance. "I don't care if it's major or minor, just tell me the root!" is something I'll often say to lighten the mood in a rehearsal setting. I also joke about my receding hairline, so I'm naturally a bit self-deprecating. Good Carol Kaye story though!

G Phrygian is the answer to your first question, and G minor7 would be a good chord to tell a pianist to play underneath it... although depending on the context many other chords could work such as Ebmaj7add9, or Cmi9, or Bb7, or...
 
#88
Mark Ambler said:
Like trying to find something that rhymes with orange or silver:)
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#90
inanimate_carb said:
I don't need the lecture about it all being simple suggestions as opposed to verbatim sheet music, but all the Real Books I've ever seen don't have many minor 7b9 chords in them. Maybe I'm reading them wrong?
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Real books often just give you the 'meat and potatoes' chords, much easier to read on gigs, and you can make the artistic decision whether to use b9,#9, as passing notes. b9, #9, b11, #11 are commonly used in improvising. For example, in the song 'Very Early' fourth bar, the chord symbol is Ab7, yet the melody contains a b9 and a #9. Chord charts are a guide, not definitive.

As this thread has a lot more info in it than the answer to the OP's question, apologies if this is seen as another derail, but hopefully it might be of help to someone. Great thread, BTW!
 
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#92
Sparkl said:
View attachment 2993539
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As stated much earlier:
Any decent chordplayer would avoid to add the b9 as a chord tone when he/she plays a minor 7th chord (here: avoid the Ab as a chord tone when he/she plays a Gmi7 in Eb) (and in all common situations. Finale/Sibelius/iReal don't even have a chord symbol for it, and I have never seen it (the chord symbol) in writing (and I have played a lot of written music)). That doesn't mean you can't use it in a melody or improvisation, of course.
 
#93
Mark Ambler said:
Real books often just give you the 'meat and potatoes' chords, much easier to read on gigs, and you can make the artistic decision whether to use b9,#9, as passing notes. b9, #9, b11, #11 are commonly used in improvising. For example, in the song 'Very Early' fourth bar, the chord symbol is Ab7, yet the melody contains a b9 and a #9. Chord charts are a guide, not definitive.

As this thread has a lot more info in it than the answer to the OP's question, apologies if this is seen as another derail, but hopefully it might be of help to someone. Great thread, BTW!
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This part of the discussion started with "If you play in Phrygian mode what chord do you want the piano player to play?", and your suggestion was "Maybe Gmin 7 b9 b13". That's different from using the b9 in the melody or an improvisation. Of course you can use the b9 in a melody or improvisation (or as a passing tone when writing harmonies).
 
#94
Fredrik E. Nilsen said:
As stated much earlier:
Any decent chordplayer would avoid to add the b9 as a chord tone when he/she plays a minor 7th chord (here: avoid the Ab as a chord tone when he/she plays a Gmi7 in Eb) (and in all common situations. Finale/Sibelius/iReal don't even have a chord symbol for it, and I have never seen it (the chord symbol) in writing (and I have played a lot of written music)). That doesn't mean you can't use it in a melody or improvisation, of course.
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I get your point man. But denying the existence of a min7b9 in diatonic harmony is pretty ignorant. Unless you are referring to a specific genre it is hard to just cross a min7b9 chord out. Yes it may not be common, but it's there and not only it's there, it's diatonic.

The example I posted above is one of common Joe Pass licks that utilizes a min7b9 sound. Now if this wasn't an improvised part but orchestrated, I don't see a specific reason not to consider a min7b9 chord in this case. Strongly depends on the tune I agree though.

Actually it makes no sense for us two to argue over this for we both are talking about the same thing, my only point here being that I mention the diatonic option because it is there if not for anything else. Then it's up to composer to decide what to do with it. Modern music takes all these sounds.
 
#95
See answer above. There's a big difference between "lay down this chord (m7b9) so I can play over it" and using the b9 (on a m7 chord) in the melody or an improvisation. Of course you can use the b9 in a melody or improvisation (or as a passing tone when writing harmonies). Also note "In all common situations". If we're talking free jazz or modern serious music, sure, go ahead. I still haven't seen the chord symbol m7b9 in use anywhere. Not in any real book, not in any writing, not in any notation programs. If you write m7 on the third step of the key (here Gm7 in Eb) and a chord player wants to add colour tones, it would probably be C (11th) or Eb (b13), depending on the function of the chord. One notable exception is a quartal chord on G: G - C - F - Bb - Eb - Ab, but usually a quartal chord is the first 5 tones. Another possible exception is a Bb13 with a bassline moving scalewise down from Bb to Eb (Bb, Ab, G, F), but then it's clear that it's really a Bb13 moving to Eb.
 
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#96
Mark Ambler said:
Real books often just give you the 'meat and potatoes' chords, much easier to read on gigs, and you can make the artistic decision whether to use b9,#9, as passing notes. b9, #9, b11, #11 are commonly used in improvising. For example, in the song 'Very Early' fourth bar, the chord symbol is Ab7, yet the melody contains a b9 and a #9. Chord charts are a guide, not definitive.

As this thread has a lot more info in it than the answer to the OP's question, apologies if this is seen as another derail, but hopefully it might be of help to someone. Great thread, BTW!
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Guess you forgot didn't read the part where I didn't need the lecture. I've done a million Real Book gigs, studied with heavy cats, and done the college thing and nobody's ever mentioned or suggested the use of a minor 7b9 chord.
 
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