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Ebay piezo bridges

Has anyone tried one of these piezo bridges yet? $50 seems almost too good to be true, but I'd love some feedback from some owners:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BASS-BRIDGE-W-B...ryZ41407QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I don't think I had that exact unit, but I did have something similar. It was a Gotoh bridge that had swapped out saddles and holes drilled to route the piezo parts through the bottom where the ground lead pops up to sandwitch between the body and the bridge. I remember the saddles being really cheap - something like 15$ each.

It wasn't very good - even though it had a buffer amp installed, it didn't do much at all other than increase the finger noise on the bass... Also, within a week of playing finger-style, one of the saddles seemed to collapse where the piezo crystal sat...

When you played finger style or pick on them they sounded like they weren't registering properly, or out of phase. But if you rested your hand atop the strings to hold them quiet between songs, it would create a massive sub sonic surge that was really hard to control...

At the very least you'd HAVE to have a buffer amplifier installed - and that's another 50 to 200$ depending on the solution you go with...
 
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Solid body instruments with piezo bridges don't sound particularly, "acoustic". Also, you get what you pay for. Don't forget that you'll need a preamp for the piezos, as well.

That said, several years ago I installed a Baggs piezo bridge/preamp in a customer's strat-type guitar, and while the tone was by no means, "acoustic"--what do you expect from piezo elements in a strat bridge?--there was some interesting tone in the mag/piezo mix, an articulation that I hadn't heard from anything else. Don't expect this from a bass, though.
 
Actually, a good piezo unit in an electric bass will give you a definition you won't get anywhere else.

save your money and get something good if you're serious about it.

It won't make your bass sound like a high end acoustic bass but you will get a great acoustic tonal quality.

I wish they made b band pickups for bass guitar.
 
Has anyone tried one of these piezo bridges yet? $50 seems almost too good to be true, but I'd love some feedback from some owners:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BASS-BRIDGE-W-B...ryZ41407QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'm an EE and have been experimenting with piezos, with an eye to inexpensive solutions that don't require butchering the instrument or rocket science designs. I totally disagree with "you get what you pay for". Save your money. You get what you and your friends figure out.

I've had good results with the $1.99 Radio Shack piezos. It's a mistake IMO to run a piezo as a standalone pickup, or to just aim for simulation of a mic'ed acoustic bass, as every technology is different and wonderful in its own way. Piezos best serve along with mag pickups as part of a composite rich sound. Using either mag or piezo alone is silly if you can have more tonal range out of both. I'll be posting some how-to with photos etc., but give me a few more days as I've ordered one of those piezo bridges for a 4 string fretless that cosmetically can benefit from a black & chunky bridge, and want to include that in the tests too. In the meantime, listen to this active fretless with mag pickup alone, piezo alone, and a composite stereo using both. Each provides specific harmonics the other cannot reproduce, together I think they sound great. I happen to like an "earthy" sound with string slap and harmonics, but whatever you like, adding pickup technologies expands your palette. No electronics were added to the bass on this configuration. The total cost on this mod was $1.99 + $5.00 for solder, wire and a beer :D.

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Yikes, I don't know about you but all that clicking and clacking in that sample sounds pretty heinous to me...

I happen to love it, it's what I was aiming for, it's a lot like what you get if you mic an upright near the fingerboard and you can hear the strings clicking and slapping. It's easy to get rid of if you don't want it, you can lowpass filter it and you can mechanically isolate the pickup from the body. There are also harmonics in there that you can't get any other way, namely the vibration of the opposite side of the strings. Where you finger divides the string, the bridge side of the string is the sound we get on mag pups, the sound of the remaining "opposite" side that's over the fingerboard is passed through the string to the bridge piezo pickup and adds some very interesting (to me, anyway) harmonics. In the clip you can hear those strange overtones now and then. I see piezo as a source of novel additional signal to mix in as desired with the conventional mag pup sound. If you want standard timbre, it's been done, there's good old mag pups, and you don't need to push the envelope.
 
Did you use any sort of buffer circuit to clean these up? Or are you running them direct through a High Z input?

On that clip it's a completely split stereo signal going into the recording mixer. What was originally recorded was the last section where both are used, which is how I like to record that fretless. Then I can work with the two signals to create what I want in the mix, add them out of phase, use one to trigger a gate or vocoder, whatever. The sections where you hear the mag and piezo separately was made from the original by completely taking out the left or right channel. The left channel is the stock Douglas bass output with its onboard SE2 preamp feeding one mixer line input, it was mostly the neck pickup with the tone controls flat or the treble rolled off a little, the right is the totally unbuffered signal from the underbridge piezo going into another (hi z) input. The mixer EQ was set flat for the left channel, and the right had about 12 db of cut at 4 Khz and about 12 dB of boost around 100 Hz, a lot of bass boost. Either alone sounds impoverished to my ears, the mag sounds dull, and the piezo too bright and "clicky".

With just a high impedance load like this, piezos seriously favor the high end. If you load down a piezo, you get a different (bassier) sound, so that it might be used as a conventional pickup.
 
FYI, I'm not interested in capturing "acoustic" tones from my electric bass in the least with a piezo bridge, rather, I thought it might be a good option on my Fender Tele bass to be able to dial in some piezo blended with the stock mudbucker PUP, since these basses are notoriously muddy with little clarity/top end.
 
I have this exact unit from the same seller.

It's the exact same model that's factory installed on the Dean Pace Electric upright (o.k.: Vertical Fretless Electric Bass On A Stick before y'all jump in :)).

A few months after I bought the Pace, It started crackling on the D. I worked out it was a defective bridge saddle. I could have got it fixed under warranty, but I know that for an uncommon (in Australia) instrument like the Pace it could take months in this country. Because mine's a gigging instrument, I decided to just buy a new bridge unit myself and found these while trolling on eBay.

I really like the sound of mine, but bear in mind it's going through a "proper" impedance matching preamp system. And FWIW the seller was really quick with sending it.
 
I bought the same piezo bridge off of eBay, haven't had time to try it though. But realise that you will need to do some "signal conditioning" because this type of pickup doesn't have the limitations (high resistance, fair amount of capacitance, high inductance, lower coupling efficiency between string and pickup at lower frequencies) of normal pickups. A high pass to get rid of the non-musical low frequencies, and a low-pass for the really high frequencies. A regular pickup isn't able to pick these up and therefore no filtering is needed.
An alembic style filterpreamp and the ability to blend this pickup with a regular one seems ideal.

Best regards,

Jarno.
 
The benefits of adding a piezo to your passive mag system isn't just frequency response, but rather PHASE ALTERATION during the attack transient. There is a simple way to do this, and can truly enhance the "acousticness" of your sound.

I use a dual piezo( for a four string bass ) mounted under a standard Pbass/Jbass bridge. The pz signal is then routed through a "bias pot" along with the mag signal. The capacitance of the piezo helps to smooth out the mag side blossom, while the inductance of the magnetic helps to realign the attack transient of the piezo...it's a win/win situation, and totally passive.

I've built and sold more than fifty electroCoustic basses so far using this principle.
 
The pz signal is then routed through a "bias pot" along with the mag signal. The capacitance of the piezo helps to smooth out the mag side blossom, while the inductance of the magnetic helps to realign the attack transient of the piezo...it's a win/win situation, and totally passive. .

If you measure the resistance of a piezo element it turns out ... to have none. Any talk of "proper impedance" is a little like talking of the "proper impedance" of a piece of cheddar. It's actually best modeled as a capacitor with a built-in AC signal source. And here we are with all the caps we use in filters with traditional mag pup ckts! There are countless ways to make use of such a "living capacitor" in various topologies, active OR passive, it's just a question of experimenting, as Dave has done. It would be cool to gradually assemble a list (with example sound clips) of different ways to insert a piezo in a traditional circuit with minimum modifications. The challenge is coming up with the most flexible circuit, ideally without having to drill any additional holes. In time, the piezo-augmented 2 mag pup setup might come to be as standard as the Jazz plate.

So I'll go first, this is a twist on the stereo jack dual output. One topology I like is having the piezo on its own output, which is easily done using Ring-Sleeve of a stereo jack, with the Mag signal on Tip-Sleeve, allowing you to blend in as much of it as you want at the mixer, before or after recording. On a passive bass, this only requires replacing the mono jack with a stereo one, using a stereo cable, and splitting the "right" and "left" at the mixer into two inputs. If you pan one hard right and the other hard left, you can record the two signals on one stereo track and defer any blending until mixdown.

On an active bass, with an internal preamp-tone control, the Ring lug is normally reserved, so you can't use it? Wrong. Here it gets interesting. The Ring terminal is used to ground the negative battery terminal (which is left floating at rest) and thus to activate the preamp whenever you plug in a mono plug that shorts the Ring to Sleeve. If you add a switch to power the preamp on and off, or just leave it on all the time, you can unsolder the battery negative wire and reclaim the Ring terminal to run Piezo signal on it.

But here is an even better approach. I connect the piezo across Ring-Sleeve in the bass, and leave the battery negative connected to Ring as well. At the mixer end I split the stereo cable with the Tip-Sleeve as "Mag" and Ring-Sleeve as "Piezo", like in the passive bass case. In addition I use an impedance-matching transformer (e.g. Radio Shack 2740017 = US $16.49) at the console end to receive the "Piezo" plug. That's not a bad DI for the Mag signal either, BTW. In that case we use two transformer/adapters.

What happens then is ideal. An additional benefit of using the transformer will become apparent.

If we plug a normal mono cable from the bass to an amp in this situation, it acts like before, Ring is shorted to Sleeve/ground, the preamp powers up, the Mag signal presents at the Tip-Sleeve pair. The Piezo is shorted out, it's out of the equation.

If we plug in a stereo plug, with an impedance-matching transformer on at least the Piezo plug at the mixer end, the transformer primary gets connected across Ring and Sleeve. It looks like a DC "short" to the battery circuit and the preamp powers up normally, presenting Mag signal at Tip-Sleeve. The transformer primary looks like a 1k resistor and that is plenty stiff enough for the preamp (which only draws a little current) to turn on. Meanwhile in the AC realm, the Piezo is feeding the transformer primary across this same pair, and the secondary of the transformer presents a low impedance Piezo signal to the mixer, as if the battery circuit weren't even there. If this is unclear, I'll post a diagram later, but it's pretty obvious.

Even if the preamp draws 3 mA (which is a lot by preamp standards) its effective resistance is 9 volts / 0.003 A = 3000 ohms. The DC resistance of the Radio Shack transformer "high Z" side is about 1 kOhm. So across the transformer the preamp will lose

9 V (1000 Ohms) / (1000 + 3000 Ohms) = 2.25 Volts

or about 1/4 of the voltage, cutting the preamp's 9 volts down to 6.75 volts, plenty good enough in 99% of the cases, as the preamps are designed to run on depleted batteries down to 5 volts or less. If the preamp draws a more typical 1 mA, the loss drops to 10%, even more negligible. Worst case, if the preamp is especially hungry, or the transformer you use has greater DC resistance, you can boost the battery to 18 volts. In practice this has worked with 9 volt circuits just fine. The loading of the piezo by the transformer incidentally changes its frequency response for the better, attenuating excessive high fequencies.

The only caveat is not to plug the Piezo Ring-Sleeve signal directly into the mixer without the transformer, as that will place part of the 9 volts DC from the bass directly across the mixer input. On some designs this is harmless. Many of the older vintage mixers, like my big English console, have transformers on the inputs already and might not even require an external transformer. On others it is met with less favorable response. If you are the distracted type, and don't want to be known as the intrepid console smoker, tape the transformer adapter(s) to the cable so you don't ever forget. A nice cable can be made with a male stereo 1/4" plug at one end for the bass and, at the other end, two transformer adapters with male XLR plugs for the mixer. On a bass with no Piezo, a stereo jack can still be useful for bringing back e.g. one of the mag pickups unattenuated, with an eye to recording it separately and having more flexibility at mixdown time.

So, anyway, there are many other ways, but this is one scenario for integrating a Piezo transducer with a bass setup, the "separate pair" wiring scheme. It works for both active and passive basses, the bass is unaltered for use with a mono amp cable, and it is especially well-suited to the recording situation, where using the special cable automatically turns it into a more adventurous instrument that lets the mixer blend Piezo and Mag signals or record them separately.

Next, we will examine a mounting strategy for the $1.99 Radio Shack transducer :p.