I'd say that given the cost of other MIA basses by Fender, Gibson, Ric, G&L, Lakland, etc... that your position is pretty rediculous - since you asked, that is...
- georgestrings
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EBMM Music Man Basses...why so much $?
- Thread starter Mike Sorr
- Start date
I'd say that given the cost of other MIA basses by Fender, Gibson, Ric, G&L, Lakland, etc... that your position is pretty rediculous - since you asked, that is...
- georgestrings
Anyone who honestly thinks that Fender and EB are gouging on their US made instruments is uneducated about what it takes to manufacture and sell a product.
Here's a thumbnail of how it works:
You need manufacturing and office space.
Grab a newspaper and see what 20,000sf of warehouse space will cost you a month. Then heat and light it and make it secure.
You need machinery and tools.
Go price just CNC milling machines and water cutters. Then pay the upkeep and monthly electricity bill.
CNC machines are useless without computers and software. The industry standard Solidworks/Camworks is going to cost you $60K+ per seat even on a multi-seat licence.
You need skilled people to maintain and run those CNC machines then assemble what they spit out. It's not rocket science but it's not minimum wage either. And that's North American wages...with benefits if you want to keep anyone good.
You need materials and a staff to source them.
Good quality traditional wood is getting more expensive and harder to find. A large company needs a team of very knowledgeable people to keep a regular flow of materiel coming in...and not just wood. You need people who can source fasteners, fabrics, metal, electronics, rubber and plastics.
You need office staff to answer phones, administer purchase orders, do payroll, keep accounts. You need chairs and desks and computers and printers and office supplies for them.
You need an advertising staff and budget.
You need an external sales distribution network that gets a cut.
Packaging and shipping costs.
Then the retailer gets their cut.
It's also worth considering that companies like these need to come up with improvements and new designs. This takes people, tools and work space, computers and software and materiel to play with. The money spent on R&D is only recovered in the long term so the immediate costs are born by the products you're selling now.
Do the math.
A new Stingray or US P-Bass is almost certainly hanging on the wall at GC for as cheap as it can be done and still keep the machine that made it fed.
Here's a thumbnail of how it works:
You need manufacturing and office space.
Grab a newspaper and see what 20,000sf of warehouse space will cost you a month. Then heat and light it and make it secure.
You need machinery and tools.
Go price just CNC milling machines and water cutters. Then pay the upkeep and monthly electricity bill.
CNC machines are useless without computers and software. The industry standard Solidworks/Camworks is going to cost you $60K+ per seat even on a multi-seat licence.
You need skilled people to maintain and run those CNC machines then assemble what they spit out. It's not rocket science but it's not minimum wage either. And that's North American wages...with benefits if you want to keep anyone good.
You need materials and a staff to source them.
Good quality traditional wood is getting more expensive and harder to find. A large company needs a team of very knowledgeable people to keep a regular flow of materiel coming in...and not just wood. You need people who can source fasteners, fabrics, metal, electronics, rubber and plastics.
You need office staff to answer phones, administer purchase orders, do payroll, keep accounts. You need chairs and desks and computers and printers and office supplies for them.
You need an advertising staff and budget.
You need an external sales distribution network that gets a cut.
Packaging and shipping costs.
Then the retailer gets their cut.
It's also worth considering that companies like these need to come up with improvements and new designs. This takes people, tools and work space, computers and software and materiel to play with. The money spent on R&D is only recovered in the long term so the immediate costs are born by the products you're selling now.
Do the math.
A new Stingray or US P-Bass is almost certainly hanging on the wall at GC for as cheap as it can be done and still keep the machine that made it fed.
That's a Deluxe model, NOT a "regular old every day Fender Jazz" - nice misrepresentation... These days, an American Standard Jazz can be had for around $1300 - no need to exagerrate...
- georgestrings
I believe the reason he used the deluxe as an example was because a standard is passive, lacking a $300+ pre-amp. JMHO
What I found "rediculous" was that a used Stingray from the 1990s is selling for more than what I spent for the exact same bass when it was new. I agree that, considering economics and time passage, that the same new bass is going to cost more today...I did say I wouldn't pay it, but that's just me. I repeat, if they can get people to pay it, more power to them. I won't. But that's not my point. My major complaint is in the price of the used bass. What I don't understand is how a 20 year old Music Man still fetches more than what I paid new in 1993. What is so "rediculous" about that?
Here's a plain old passive Jazz bass for $2400. No exaggeration.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JazzB74RBlk/
Let me see if I've got this straight - "I paid $750 for my Stingray bass 25 years ago. Now they cost more, and that's crazy". Could that seriously be what you're saying?? Do you have any idea how much wages have increased? In 1990, the average yearly salary in the US was $19k. Today it's $47k. Do you know how much health care costs have gone up? In the last 10 years alone, my health insurance costs have increased 147%!
Friend, you need a reality check, and fast!
Sorry I missed that we weren't talking about new instruments before I went off with my above post.
I have to agree with you. I have an '82 P bass that's I've seen similar ones sell for more than I paid new. I kinda don't get it when most of the current '57 re-issues are as good as any old ones I've played. All I can think of is that people are cashing in on the fact that while a 20 year old bass might not be vintage yet it's closer than a new one is? From a player's point of view it seems a bad investment to pay a new price for a used instrument.
That happens with a lot of instruments, not just Music Man basses. I bought a new Fender Marcus Miller for about $800 in the early 2000s. Now used ones go for more than that. I also have an Alembic that I bought new in 2000. I see similar instruments selling used for at or in some cases more than I paid for mine new.
I bought a used Lakland 55-02 in 2002 or 2003. I paid $750. New ones were selling for $1,000 - 1,200. Now used ones are in the $1,000 range. It's inflation intersecting cost of similar products available.
Speaking of reality checks what about the warranty you're not getting buying used?
What about the 2 decades of wear and tear?
Is the original case in good shape? Probably not.
No way should a non-vintage used instrument be going for what a new one costs today. Unless there are significant differences in quality or design which isn't the case with an EB Stingray.
Friend, you don't have it straight and you need to improve your reading comprehension skills. Do any of you people actually read the posts? I'll say it again...YES, I UNDERSTAND BASIC ECONOMICS ANS WHILE I PERSONALLY WOULD NOT PAY OVER A GRAND FOR A NEW BASS I KNOW AND UNDERSTAND WHY THEY COST MORE THAN THEY DID IN THE 90s!!! Again, for the last time...my main bitch was about USED Stingrays from the 90s and why they're selling for MORE than they did new.
Who ever said it never hurts to ask? Some of you geniuses seriously need to get off your high horse.
A Fender Jazz bass cost $279 in 1960. Now that very exact same bass costs $18,000! This is an outrage!!! 
Yaaaay, Jeff Bonny gets it.
The further point is that there nothing special or even significantly different about the basses from the 90s. I am specifically talking about my trans teal, maple fretboard, clear pickguard Stingray from the mid - 90s that I bought brand spanking new at the New Jersey Guitar and Bass Center for $750. I have seen the exact same bass from the exact same era going for $1200 used. That is what I am saying is silly. The manufacturing costs and all the rest of the business related comments that are being made here are irrelevant when the discussion is specifically about USED instruments that are non vintage, non collector pieces.
The further point is that there nothing special or even significantly different about the basses from the 90s. I am specifically talking about my trans teal, maple fretboard, clear pickguard Stingray from the mid - 90s that I bought brand spanking new at the New Jersey Guitar and Bass Center for $750. I have seen the exact same bass from the exact same era going for $1200 used. That is what I am saying is silly. The manufacturing costs and all the rest of the business related comments that are being made here are irrelevant when the discussion is specifically about USED instruments that are non vintage, non collector pieces.
There is a strange phenomenon called inflation. And besides, no one is forcing you to buy an EBMM. If you don't like the prices don't buy one. Simple as that. I personally feel EBMM basses are well worth the price of admission.
Inflation.
There's your answer.
If a bass was $750 new 25 years ago and the exact same (or close) bass is $1500 new in 2013.... and the used market dictates that a used SR is $900-1000.... And a 25 year old SR is not destroyed and tonally/visually a Stingray... It is worth more than $750.
Bitch all you want but a 25 year old used Stingray is now worth more used today than it was worth new 25 years ago.
My 25 year old $750 mutual fund is worth more than $750 (and generally $1500) also.
There's your answer.
If a bass was $750 new 25 years ago and the exact same (or close) bass is $1500 new in 2013.... and the used market dictates that a used SR is $900-1000.... And a 25 year old SR is not destroyed and tonally/visually a Stingray... It is worth more than $750.
Bitch all you want but a 25 year old used Stingray is now worth more used today than it was worth new 25 years ago.
My 25 year old $750 mutual fund is worth more than $750 (and generally $1500) also.
A Fender Jazz bass cost $279 in 1960. Now that very exact same bass costs $18,000! This is an outrage!!!
You're not getting it. A vintage Corvette from the early 60s is going to demand more than it cost new to a collector of vintage cars. However, a 1995 Corvette is probably not going to be as in demand, won't be as rare, and shouldn't fetch much more than it cost new and should probably go for less. Why? Because it's nothing special. A vintage 60s Fender in pristine condition is a rarity and people will pay for a rarity. A mid 90s Stingray bass is, say it with me, nothing special.
Your turn.
Your words -
It's basic economics. A rising tide raises all boats. If prices on used EBMM's go up, and the used items are popular and high quality, used prices go up. Don't know what's so hard to comprehend.
