An Eden Metro Combo just popped up on marketplace for $450 or best offer. Decisions...
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Eden vs Mark Bass vs ?
- Thread starter Mario Keresztes
- Start date
Not a bad deal. You can even run those at 2 ohms. About 80lbs though.....
I have my own theory on this.
After being disappointed with every NEO I've ever tried I believe the weight of the speaker magnets are somehow also involved with how much air is being pushed. You mentioned the Markbass cabs sounding decent, but I have a CMD 102P that was horribly disappointing, and two Markbass 2x10 Traveler cabs that were a big disappointment as well. Sold both 2x10's finally........but I'm still trying to unload that CMD 102P. Plenty of sound. But there is no punch, and it's very heavy in the upper mids.
It seems like heavier cabs coupled with heavier magnets somehow create more punch. I know that sounds crazy, and there will be plenty of folks stopping by to tell me I'm under the influence of nostalgia (or crack.....or both), but I have A/B'd many cabinets side by side with my Eden in a controlled studio environment with similar results. Just a couple months ago I purchased new Mesa Subway 1x15 at the advice of others here and ran it side by side with my Eden (as well as an old school ceramic Peavey VTX). While I understand it's not fair to compare a 1x15 to a 4x10, it was still a joke. I could have run three of those 1x15's stacked and it wouldn't have mattered. That's how big of a difference there was.
Don't get me wrong. I love and have owned plenty of Mesa stuff. I just haven't found a Neo cab I like yet .......from any manufacturer. I only specifically mentioned Mesa to address the OP's question. Fortunately I go direct at gigs, so not finding a good Neo that suits my needs isn't a big deal for me. I'm just surprised at how many people think the new NEO cabs sound as good as old school cabs. Maybe these guys aren't running A/B comparisons. Maybe they are running at incredibly high SPL's (admittedly, I don't because none of the clubs around here allow that) and the differences become less noticeable at those levels. /shrug
That said.....I'm not finished in my quest to find a NEO that I'm happy with. I've heard good things about the Bergantino 2x12 Neos. They are next on my list to test.
My CMD 102 punches like nuts. I cannot believe the amount of air it moves for its size and weight.
What kind of gigs are you using it on?
Liked the D-410XLT but never liked the D-210XLT I had that much; too forward in the low mids and not much in the deep lows plus the drivers creased if you pushed them hard. Prefer the D-210XST (less boomy), though the True 3-way fEARful 15/6/1 I built sounds significantly better than both... flatter, deeper response, more like a monitor speaker. Heard good things about the Subway 1x15" but haven't played through one yet.
Generally it's hard rock, at times some metal, some nu-metal.
Mine is the older CMD 102P (horizontal 2x10). I'm assuming yours must be from the newer MB58R line? I have heard they hit a lot harder than the older units.
David Nordschow 
(not Eden)
Many make that mistake including me a while back
Response to thedutch47
(not Eden)Many make that mistake including me a while back
Response to thedutch47
No, mine is the same as yours, but I am (mostly) playing jazz/funk/fusion stuff, occasional hard rock, all with no problem. I'm guessing you guys are loud!
Was not even aware of the new line. I see they have ceramic instead of neo, and they are still a few pounds lighter. Crazy times.
I'm also using my CMD 102P for keys and I love the tilt on it. Sounds great on keys/synth (and bass) when tilted, though I often wonder how it projects into the crowd at that angle.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,978
- 5
- 220,742
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
And very different tastes.People have different needs
I would recommend either the D-800+ or WD-800 for your applications.
I disagree. The majority of touring pro audio subwoofers use Neo drivers and have absolutely no problem with extended low frequency performance.
Understood, and certainly respect your opinion on this. But I think that has more to do with pro audio sound generally being arranged in huge arrays, versus a single 4x10.
Either way, I can’t disregard what my ears are telling me.
I will admit that the differences I am hearing are fairly indistinguishable 30 feet away from my amp. So this is more about what I’m hearing than what the audience is.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,978
- 5
- 220,742
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
They are arrayed in large systems because the required SPL is far greater than any single driver can produce. On big systems, at 1M the SPL may be more than 150dB at the low end, and require 100kW to produce? It's all about scale.
Have you considered that it may have nothing to do with Neo and everything to do with your personal tastes. You simply prefer the limited performance that's common to the older designs?
OK, but why is it that even on smaller sub-equipped NEO PA systems, there is a depth that I am unable to get on a Neo equipped bass cab?
What I'm not sensing on NEO equipped cabs is the punch on the bottom. You know.......the stuff that makes your pants flap and ribcage rattle. If I hit the deep switch on my D800 running into my Eden it's a totally different experience then doing so on every Neo equipped cab I've tried.
Feeling my bass is as important (to me) as hearing it. It's why I generally stand 4 feet or less from my cab. If I can't feel it, it's just not as enveloping, and I might as well just be wearing a pair of IEMS.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,978
- 5
- 220,742
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
I’m just shooting in the dark here but a lot of those speaker cabinets from that era, Eden, Aguilar, Peavey had this mid scoop thing going on. Which made the bass more pronounced as the midrange voice that carries more of the musical information was subdued. So the bass end of the spectrum is more strident and it does sound better if observed close up. As one gets further out in the room, the audience’s perspective, that kind of tone is buried in the wash of everything else because that midrange carrying the bulk of music information is not as present.
Again that is why that deep bass sound sounds good at home but doesn't cut through on stage in a band setting. Whereas a fuller range speaker system may sound harsh up clise but when it reaches its destination, the audience, it is all present and balanced.
Remember…
Bedroom sound
Live sound
Again that is why that deep bass sound sounds good at home but doesn't cut through on stage in a band setting. Whereas a fuller range speaker system may sound harsh up clise but when it reaches its destination, the audience, it is all present and balanced.
Remember…
Bedroom sound
Live sound
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Because in the neo-sub based PA the neo sub is running as a sub. The neo bass speaker in a bass amp situation is running more as a full-range speaker
As I said in my dissertation above, that old school mid-scooped thing has run its course. Most bass players have moved on from that as seen by the companies that followed that trend. Many companies have adopted if not neo speakers as a whole. A more modern voiced fuller range speaker for bass. As you noted, you like you speaker up close, about four feet out but 30 feet out, indistinguishable.
Your other commit, “So this is more about what I’m hearing than what the audience is.”
A lot of folks made the decision after a while that it was more important what the audience was hearing that their perception of what sounds good just on stage, especially if their rig has to carry the room. With the advent of better PA equipment and sound personnel, having a clearer sound on stage is so important for an overall sound in the room and to the audience.
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I’m just shooting in the dark here but a lot of those speaker cabinets from that era, Eden, Aguilar, Peavey had this mid scoop thing going on. Which made the bass more pronounced as the midrange voice that carries more of the musical information was subdued. So the bass end of the spectrum is more strident and it does sound better if observed close up. As one gets further out in the room, the audience’s perspective, that kind of tone is buried in the wash of everything else because that midrange carrying the bulk of music information is not as present.
Again that is why that deep bass sound sounds good at home but doesn't cut through on stage in a band setting. Whereas a fuller range speaker system may sound harsh up clise but when it reaches its destination, the audience, it is all present and balanced.
Remember…
Bedroom sound
View attachment 7287764
Live sound
View attachment 7287761
Appreciate the response.
This would make sense if I was dialing in a scooped bedroom sound.....but I'm not. I'm also using an HPF so mud is rarely a problem for me.
That said, I will admit that it does appear that manufacturers have become less concerned with punch (what you get around 100Khz) nowadays.......possibly because of the limitations of Neo.....but more likely to reduce mud (i.e. make their products easier less inherently muddy with a better live sound "out of the box").
I have heard others complain about this same thing, but it doesn't seem that there is an answer. I'll just stick with my old school cabs and continue my search for Neos that might work for me.
All I can say is, you like what you like.
Again though, it was more market-driven than manufactors deciding in the middle of the night to change over to “ the limitations of neo.” You said yourself that the subs in a small neo PA sounded full, and Pro touring PA systems run neo speakers throughout. A body of people that isn't tricked by hype, in fact one of the early adopters of neo speakers and class d power amps which trickled down into musical instrument amp manufacturing today. True there were some ealrly implementation that were not successful and gave a bad name to it all but now after the initial shakedown cruise it has become more stable.
I can understand you liking what you like but it doesn't invalidate what works and is used by a lot of other people. That is why some manufacturers have gone back to ceramic speakers in some cabinets for those who like that sound, yet still continuing to make those “limitations of neo” speakers for those that like that
PS The punch is there, you are just hearing the other frequencies with it.
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- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,978
- 5
- 220,742
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
The 100Hz bump was the result of tuning the cabinet for an under-damped response. Some manufactures still do this with Neo drivers but those who have migrated towards the higher end of the market have generally refined their designs to reduce this and take advantage of a more balanced, smoother low end response without the LF bump and dip in the mids.
From what I gather, this mixes up the type of technology (drivers with neodymium or ferrite magnets) with driver and enclosure design. I don't think neodymium has any particular sound on its own; it is just a material used to make extremely powerful magnets that can be used in loudspeakers. As mentioned, the tonal difference is more a matter of the design goals than the magnet type. Perhaps some earlier neodymium bass cabinets had a thinner tone, but that would be due to design choices rather than something inherent in the "sound" of neodymium, more of a coincidence than a flaw in the technology. There are lots of neodymium woofers that kick out the deep lows at high volume, many in professional use for years. The neodymium 3015LF in my fEARful has way more booty than the old school XST woofers in my Eden cabinet.
