Double Bass Ehrlund Acoustic Pickup

[Don Kasper]

By the way, Don, I see you studied with James VanDemark at Eastman. Many moons ago (1968) he and I were stand partners at the University of Minnesota High School Musicians Project (needless to say, he was first chair to my second). Back then he was know as 'J.B.', the James came later. It's fun for me to think back to those days, and all these years later to recognize that he and I BOTH made the right career decisions. His, to become the youngest Full Professor at Eastman (if I'm not mistaken), and mine - to do something else.

rickwolff,
NO S**t! "J.B." was his name at Eastman, as well.
Were you a student of bassist "James Clute" (sp.)? I think JB was, and there was a steady stream of Clute/Wunderkids from Minnesota, back then at Eastman.
I went to Eastman as a 22yr. old Freshman (long story)....JB was 26 at the time! He was/is quite a character and was (for me), a great teacher.
Thanks for the memories.

 

[Don Kasper]

You're a smarter man than I. Some of us just can't resist playing Don Quixote (or as Sheldon on 'The Big Bang' told Penny "You think that 'Don Quixote is about a 'Donkey' named 'Hotey').

Your more practical goal is met for me by using the Gage Lifeline. By using a condenser mic into the recording I can hear and enjoy that 'studio' sound when I listen to the recording after the gig. And, truth be told, I'm probably the only one who cares anyway.

NOT smarter, just Cheaper.

 

[rickwolff]

rickwolff,
NO S**t! "J.B." was his name at Eastman, as well.
Were you a student of bassist "James Clute" (sp.)? I think JB was, and there was a steady stream of Clute/Wunderkids from Minnesota, back then at Eastman.
I went to Eastman as a 22yr. old Freshman (long story)....JB was 26 at the time! He was/is quite a character and (for me), a great teacher.
Thanks for the memories.

Yes Don, I was a student of Jim Clutes (I see he passed last year - it struck me as the end of an era). I wonder who some of the other Wunderkinder were. I know another of his students, Susan Allard, was the highly respected bassist with the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra. I worked many gigs with her late/ex husband, Bruce Allard who was a violinist with the Chamber Orchestra and also a fine trumpeter. Ah, the good old days. Good memories are a wonderful thing. (Maybe I should tell you about the time I played the warm-up act for Herbie Hancock, or when I played with the Mills Brothers. No, better not to get me started).

Always nice to hear from you and I always enjoy your posts.

Peace

 

[Don Kasper]

Rick,

(the late) Ken Baldwin was a student of James Clute and was a year behind me - he had won the Minnesota Orch. Young Artist Competition (I believe?) and had performed the Koussevitsky Concerto with the Orchestra(!!!). I was stunned by how well he played for an 18yr. old. Mr. Clute must have been very special, as there were at least 2 of his students out of the 16 or so at Eastman during that time. Those are pretty good numbers.
Also, bassist Tom Erickson, was a year ahead of me - I believe he was a Clute student, and was a very fine player, as well.
(I will need to hear the Herbie H. story at some point...).
Thanks for the kind words.
Take care.

 

[flatback]

I guess I (D)rub'd you the wrong way....sorry. I appreciate all your knowledge and criticism and will call upon it in future (Im waiting for the new Remic mics to see if they are any better at this ball game)....wait you already chimed in there...
I just wanted to clarify that by using the expression BALLS I dint mean to infer that those who use the EAP don't have any or don't sound like they have any, what I meant is that What I need a pickup to do is give me immediate feedback on pitch center for intonation, rhythmic punch for pulse, and the ability to cut thru the cacophony of frequencies jangling around a live stage so that I can hear myself in the context of the music. THEN if there is some added airiness, that can be added in for detail and acoustic nuance great (the mic part) and if that can just go FOH even better. But the EAP is (IMHO) a pickup, that is not as good as a real mic (in terms of true reproduction....Troll or 4099 better) nor is it anywhere near giving the aformentioned must haves as a pickup.It is a living room pickup IMHO.And in that context it sounds great (and is finicky enough to allow for hours of dodad entertainment)
I anticipate that the Remic will be a mic that may be workable for Duo settings and I am hoping there will be enough useful signal to mix with a pickup for playing in group context. That is what the Troll did (when I had it) and sounded great and that is what I have been doing lately with the 4099b (although it is a kind of cold sound) I played the Jazz and Whale festival last night and used the 4099 with the Stat B... a decent combo ...unfortunately I had to bring the Wizzy 10 which I used for many moons but now sounds just terrible to me (after playing an MAS cab for 6 months)...way too midrangy.
No offense, just opinion.

 

[drurb]

I guess I (D)rub'd you the wrong way....sorry. I appreciate all your knowledge and criticism and will call upon it in future (Im waiting for the new Remic mics to see if they are any better at this ball game)....wait you already chimed in there...
I just wanted to clarify that by using the expression BALLS I dint mean to infer that those who use the EAP don't have any or don't sound like they have any, what I meant is that What I need a pickup to do is give me immediate feedback on pitch center for intonation, rhythmic punch for pulse, and the ability to cut thru the cacophony of frequencies jangling around a live stage so that I can hear myself in the context of the music. THEN if there is some added airiness, that can be added in for detail and acoustic nuance great (the mic part) and if that can just go FOH even better. But the EAP is (IMHO) a pickup, that is not as good as a real mic (in terms of true reproduction....Troll or 4099 better) nor is it anywhere near giving the aformentioned must haves as a pickup.It is a living room pickup IMHO.And in that context it sounds great (and is finicky enough to allow for hours of dodad entertainment)
I anticipate that the Remic will be a mic that may be workable for Duo settings and I am hoping there will be enough useful signal to mix with a pickup for playing in group context. That is what the Troll did (when I had it) and sounded great and that is what I have been doing lately with the 4099b (although it is a kind of cold sound) I played the Jazz and Whale festival last night and used the 4099 with the Stat B... a decent combo ...unfortunately I had to bring the Wizzy 10 which I used for many moons but now sounds just terrible to me (after playing an MAS cab for 6 months)...way too midrangy.
No offense, just opinion.

No offense taken. The EAP a "living room" pickup? Well, certainly not in my experience. Exactly what you identify as your "must haves" are what I've gotten from the Ehrlund vs. a bridge-mounted pickup. Nowhere was that more apparent than when playing with a big band. The transduction of the front-end temporal attack gave me the pulse and pitch center in a way I had never experienced with any bridge-mounted pickup. Those characteristics translated well to smaller combo gigs as well. I can understand that if one is playing amid high sound-pressure levels that the Ehrlund could be a problem given it's higher susceptibility to bleed-through.

I agree that the EAP is not as good as a good mic. As I've posted before, in terms of fidelity of transduction and tonal balance, nothing beats a good mic. For me, the EAP is a really good compromise because it blends some of the features of a mic (e.g., transduction of the attack/decay transients) with far less susceptibility to feedback than a mic.

No pickup works for every player and bass. There are mechano-acoustical factors that come into play as well as different preferences. I can only relate my experiences and what I (think I) know.

YMMV!

Much of this is re-hash and can be found in the threads devoted to the Ehrlund. Maybe we should continue the discussion there if anyone feels the desire.

 

[JYD]

No offense taken. The EAP a "living room" pickup? Well, certainly not in my experience. Exactly what you identify as your "must haves" are what I've gotten from the Ehrlund vs. a bridge-mounted pickup. Nowhere was that more apparent than when playing with a big band. The transduction of the front-end temporal attack gave me the pulse and pitch center in a way I had never experienced with any bridge-mounted pickup. Those characteristics translated well to smaller combo gigs as well. I can understand that if one is playing amid high sound-pressure levels that the Ehrlund could be a problem given it's higher susceptibility to bleed-through.

I agree that the EAP is not as good as a good mic. As I've posted before, in terms of fidelity of transduction and tonal balance, nothing beats a good mic. For me, the EAP is a really good compromise because it blends some of the features of a mic (e.g., transduction of the attack/decay transients) with far less susceptibility to feedback than a mic.

Much of this is re-hash and can be found in the threads devoted to the Ehrlund. Maybe we should continue the discussion there if anyone feels the desire.

I was directed to the Ehrlund thread after posting my original question . Didn't really see the Ehrlund thread originally. I do appreciate the feedback. I was glad to see all the feedback. Kind of leaves me where I started though.......
the Ehrlund might just be an expensive experiment for my live sound. I'm presuming many players just didn't take the time to find a sweet spot on their bass to get a good sound. Presuming I could find the sweet spot on my bass within a trial period I still face the probability that it will not work out in loud/loud drummer situations.
I'm sure I won't have loud gig/loud drummer associated problems with a Fishman Full Circle, though it won't get me the quality of sound a Mic setup can produce. It's kind of a trade off. Don't see how it can ever be anything other than that in the history of sound. 20 years from now the latest Bass Mic system will have the same limitation they have today. Someone will probably produce a better Bass Mic that captures and reproduces a better quality output but if that Mic system on the bass is in a loud environment it's likely to have sound bleed issues. Maybe a really focused Bass Mic will come along some day and reduce/solve the sound bleed issue but it will probably be limited in what I can produce for output. I was in the studio Tuesday. The engineer Mic'ed my bass with two Mics but I was not in a booth so he explained there would be some sound bleed from the Grand piano. Vocals/Drums were in a booth. The piano was 30 feet away behind a partition and these focused Mic's would still have bleed issues from 30 feet away. So I can't see how that type of issue/scenario will ever be solved in live situations. Therefore Mic systems for any instrument will probably always have sound bleed issues in live/loud/or tight performance situations.

 

[robgrow]

Does anyone remember the Schertler Dyn-B? It's a great pickup if it works for you on your bass. Very similar situation here with the Ehrlund.

 

[drurb]

I was directed to the Ehrlund thread after posting my original question . Didn't really see the Ehrlund thread originally. I do appreciate the feedback. I was glad to see all the feedback. Kind of leaves me where I started though.......
the Ehrlund might just be an expensive experiment for my live sound. I'm presuming many players just didn't take the time to find a sweet spot on their bass to get a good sound. Presuming I could find the sweet spot on my bass within a trial period I still face the probability that it will not work out in loud/loud drummer situations.
I'm sure I won't have loud gig/loud drummer associated problems with a Fishman Full Circle, though it won't get me the quality of sound a Mic setup can produce. It's kind of a trade off. Don't see how it can ever be anything other than that in the history of sound. 20 years from now the latest Bass Mic system will have the same limitation they have today. Someone will probably produce a better Bass Mic that captures and reproduces a better quality output but if that Mic system on the bass is in a loud environment it's likely to have sound bleed issues. Maybe a really focused Bass Mic will come along some day and reduce/solve the sound bleed issue but it will probably be limited in what I can produce for output. I was in the studio Tuesday. The engineer Mic'ed my bass with two Mics but I was not in a booth so he explained there would be some sound bleed from the Grand piano. Vocals/Drums were in a booth. The piano was 30 feet away behind a partition and these focused Mic's would still have bleed issues from 30 feet away. So I can't see how that type of issue/scenario will ever be solved in live situations. Therefore Mic systems for any instrument will probably always have sound bleed issues in live/loud/or tight performance situations.

You are quite correct. It's always a tradeoff and I think it always will be, although, as you point out, future technology will likely narrow the gap. For those who have had success with the EAP, it's a tradeoff that works well. It has microphone-like qualities (but certainly nowhere near the sonic quality of a good mic) coupled with substantial bleed-through and feedback rejection. I've had the EAP in some tough spots including one where I was about two feet from a somewhat loud drummer in a noisy bar and my Crazy88 was about two feet from the bass. It performed well. Feedback was more of a problem than was bleed-through but judicious positioning of the bass coupled with use of the polarity inversion switch on the EAP pre-amp did the trick. The EAP is more impervious to ill effects than you might think.

Then again, the Full Circle is loved by many and used by "name" players which, as iona bass points out, is meaningful. None of the pickups regularly discussed and endorsed here is "bad." That is, not beyond the sense in which any pickup is bad. I think much of the discussion is usually about nuance. In my experience, on my bass, the EAP produces benefits that simply cannot be afforded by any bridge-mounted pickup and that's a direct result of its design. That seems true for a number of other players as well.

Currently, I think the EAP is substantially over-priced. You gotta go with what makes sense to you. One of my goals was to help you make your decision by providing the best information I could. I'm a former Rev Solo user as well. I've had the EAP in my hands, for whatever that's worth.

Finally, I see all amplification as a necessary evil. What I really enjoy is playing without it and I'm happy that, recently, that's what I've been mostly doing when the bass and I go out on a date.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Does anyone remember the Schertler Dyn-B? It's a great pickup if it works for you on your bass. Very similar situation here with the Ehrlund.

I not only remember it, I heard it being used last night on a bass by Nick Lloyd played by Mark Dresser. I'd like to add it went through a 90's Walter Woods amp/EA10 on the first set, which I missed. Before the second set started, when Mark turned the amp on, it started making double clicking sounds, kind of in time. He turned it on and off a few times and it didn't come around. As luck would have it, I had my EA Doubler with me as I felt funny leaving it in the car last night, and we plugged it in.

Back to the Dyn B; with the Lloyd bass...it sounded excellent, clear, punchy, musical and...like a pickup on a bass! I've played that bass and it is wonderful, so that is a good place to start in trying to get a sound. I would venture to say that if you put a FC, Underwood, Stat B, Lifeline, EAP,
etc. on that bass and setup, a good, usable sound would have been found and the performance would have been a success, as it certainly was.

 

[MrSidecar]

I was directed to the Ehrlund thread after posting my original question . Didn't really see the Ehrlund thread originally. I do appreciate the feedback. I was glad to see all the feedback. Kind of leaves me where I started though.......
the Ehrlund might just be an expensive experiment for my live sound. I'm presuming many players just didn't take the time to find a sweet spot on their bass to get a good sound. Presuming I could find the sweet spot on my bass within a trial period I still face the probability that it will not work out in loud/loud drummer situations.

I'll chime in quickly.
I play the Ehrlund as my only pickup, have done so over time with a variety of different combos and amp/cab situations. The latest two being the best and greatest I have ever experienced (cab: MAS26, amp: Lehre b90 and Walter Woods MI100-8).
My band plays pretty loud at times, with a great drummer not holding back. We play what I'd call loud. Certainly not ear-ringing loud, but, who would with a double bass?
All I can say is, the Ehrlund is the by far the best solution I have encountered so far. For all the reasons stated: Attack, punch, miclike qualities. I have never had bleed or feedback issues. It works just great for me every time, crammy stages and boomy rooms included.

Hope that helps.

best
Sidecar

 

[rickwolff]

I'll chime in quickly.
I play the Ehrlund as my only pickup, have done so over time with a variety of different combos and amp/cab situations. The latest two being the best and greatest I have ever experienced (cab: MAS26, amp: Lehre b90 and Walter Woods MI100-8).
My band plays pretty loud at times, with a great drummer not holding back. We play what I'd call loud. Certainly not ear-ringing loud, but, who would with a double bass?
All I can say is, the Ehrlund is the by far the best solution I have encountered so far. For all the reasons stated: Attack, punch, miclike qualities. I have never had bleed or feedback issues. It works just great for me every time, crammy stages and boomy rooms included.

Hope that helps.

best
Sidecar

(Derail) Sidecar, please describe for me your experience with the MAS26 which doesn't show up on Mike's website but he shows the 46 as an electric bass speaker. If you'd prefer to PM me feel free.

Thanks,
Rick

 

[Ric Vice]

I'll chime in quickly.
I play the Ehrlund as my only pickup, have done so over time with a variety of different combos and amp/cab situations. The latest two being the best and greatest I have ever experienced (cab: MAS26, amp: Lehre b90 and Walter Woods MI100-8).
My band plays pretty loud at times, with a great drummer not holding back. We play what I'd call loud. Certainly not ear-ringing loud, but, who would with a double bass?
All I can say is, the Ehrlund is the by far the best solution I have encountered so far. For all the reasons stated: Attack, punch, miclike qualities. I have never had bleed or feedback issues. It works just great for me every time, crammy stages and boomy rooms included.

Hope that helps.

best
Sidecar

+1

I've been happily busy performing with my little group The Wire Pilots, and playing concerts at Washington University, and Webster University and around St. Louis. At every
venue the Ehrlund sounded great! I've moved to using the Headway EDB-2 as the pre amp for the Ehrlund into the mains or back to a powered cabinet. Drew Gress was here
Tuesday night with John Abercrombie, and he used my 3/4 Knilling flatback, with an Ehrlund directly into a Walter Woods Ultra, and my TC-112 cabinet, it sounded lovely.
I have Ehrlund's on both my basses, and they sound great. As others have mentioned, you have to try the pickup on your bass, to see if it works. Endorsements are a slippery
slope at best, and touring musicians like Drew, are so adept at working with any instrument, (provided it's set up well and has a decent pickup) that it doesn't seem to be
much of a concern for them. Just my take.

Ric

 

[rickwolff]

(Derail) Sidecar, please describe for me your experience with the MAS26 which doesn't show up on Mike's website but he shows the 46 as an electric bass speaker. If you'd prefer to PM me feel free.

Thanks,
Rick

Sidecar, Sorry! I should have done my search FIRST, you have described beautifully you experience with the 26 (some to my previous question) I'll claim advancing age as an excuse.

That said, I'm still intrigued by the MAS26 and hope I might find one to demo. If you have anything new to add I'm all ears. Thanks

 

[MrSidecar]

That said, I'm still intrigued by the MAS26 and hope I might find one to demo. If you have anything new to add I'm all ears. Thanks

Rick,

No problem. The MAS26 is equally amazing on electric and upright. With the electric, it gave me the low end punch of a 4x10 (well, almost) and was more than sufficient as backline. With the upright, it's quite simply a game changer. I play with a new level of confidence since the sound is awesome and makes me feel good.

best
sidecar

 

[Don Sibley]

Just another "endorser" of the EAP here.

I run it into a Clarus 4+ and an MAS45. I've enjoyed performing with this pickup more than anything else I've tried (Lifeline, FC, Realist, Underwood, Troll, BP-100, AMT, etc.). The attack/decay profile mentioned earlier allows me to really drive an ensemble better than any of the compressed sounding bridge pickups I've run. The midrange frequencies also lack the twangy character most associated with those pickups. It is somewhat of a middle ground between a mic and a typical piezo but that is perfect for me. I don't have the frustration of dealing with mic feedback and I get the punchy character I'm really after.

I can understand why some players would want a more "plug-n-play" set-up but it reduces the pleasure of performing for me. Everybody is different. Chris Fitzgerald posted some recordings he made with a FC and I was completely blown away by the sound he produced and in a very live happy-hour bar type setting. He wrote that his set-up isn't perfect but it allows him to quit fussing over gear and just concentrate on the music. I haven't quite gotten to that point with my rig but I'm very close. (Starting to think I just need a little more power than the Clarus can provide.)

 

[DB Slidefunk]

I use pretty much the same set up and it works pretty well. The trouble I have at one venue is a hollow stage with a big sub speaker next to it. The thump from the kick drum vibrates my bass and sends the EAP into feedback. I can't seem to get enough lows out to tame it as it's just too much bass shaking. I'm considering some kind of rubber mat to put the bass on at the problem venue.

 

[drurb]

I use pretty much the same set up and it works pretty well. The trouble I have at one venue is a hollow stage with a big sub speaker next to it. The thump from the kick drum vibrates my bass and sends the EAP into feedback. I can't seem to get enough lows out to tame it as it's just too much bass shaking. I'm considering some kind of rubber mat to put the bass on at the problem venue.

Hmmm... a rubber mat isn't likely to filter those low frequencies very well. Throw the rubber mat on the drummer.

 

[DB Slidefunk]

I thought it would reduce contact vibration from the stage coming up through the end pin, not airborn sound. Just curious really as it's a tricky venue and we have residency there.

 

[drurb]

I was assuming that you meant floor-transmitted vibration, but given how low the frequencies are and the power you describe them having, I wasn't too optimistic. Hey, give it a try!