Will the Ehrlund preamp give a stronger signal? Right now I use the EAP with Fishman PB and can get a sort of usable sound and can hear the potential with the EAP but I am not totally happy, not enough of signal. I did the mistake of not getting the pre so now I am in the middle, should I go all in and order a pre amp or is the EAP nothing for me. Looks like I have to go for the preamp...
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Double Bass ehrlund contact pu-mike
- Thread starter igor kondur
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Will the Ehrlund preamp give a stronger signal? Right now I use the EAP with Fishman PB and can get a sort of usable sound and can hear the potential with the EAP but I am not totally happy, not enough of signal. I did the mistake of not getting the pre so now I am in the middle, should I go all in and order a pre amp or is the EAP nothing for me. Looks like I have to go for the preamp...
You really need the Ehrlund preamp to get the best sound with the EAP.
Just keep in mind however that, like all contact microphones, results with the EAP vary dramatically from bass to bass from great to unusable. So it's somewhat of a crap shoot how it will work on your bass. Good luck!
robgrow said:
Do you really think it is such a crap shoot as that? I don't see why it wouldn't just amplify any bass you put it on. It is so much more natural and transparent than any piezo, that it should just do a simply better job of boosting your volume. Do you have personal experience, with the Erhlund, not the Dyn b, that the Erhlund is unusable with certain basses? Or is that a general compliant against other contact mics? IME, the Erhlund has been a HUGE improvement over anything I have previously used, and is very simple to use. I just slap it on the bass and go to town (with the preamp). I read the entire Erhlund thread before buying mine, and didn't see anyone say it was unusable on their bass. Sure, some folks didn't like it, or prefer it, but I attribute that mostly to years of using piezo systems and being adapted to the tone and punch you get from piezos.
Engedi,
From what I gather talking, to other TB members through P.M.'s, and reading through the Ehrlund thread, the EAP is either going to work on your bass, like it does with our instruments or it doesn't work well at all.
Sometimes I think it's possibly user error, when the pre amp is damaged or the input cable is strained beyond it's limits, or it's just not mounted correctly. Other times, I also think it's quite possible that the expectations of the Ehrlund's output before feedback are totally unrealistic. It's signal is just not as hot as, either the Full Circle, or Realist. Those pickups are simply louder into a number of different amplifiers. Since the Ehrlund operates at Unity Gain, or something close to it, it just doesn't have the same punch when you increase the volume. What it has is great clarity, tone and responsiveness.
The beauty of the Ehrlund is that it's timbre matches the sound of the bass acoustically, especially with the bow. It's volume is perfectly suited to my needs and works fine in a lot of different sized spaces.
I wasn't aware that there was any mention of the Schertler DYN-B in these recent posts. Maybe I missed it. Remember, other players, especially ones with more experience, have experimented with all kinds of pickups. There have been a whole slew of DB contact mic's that sounded pretty awful.
We know from the Ehrlund thread that Treyzer just couldn't get it to work with the Phil Jones Superflight Case and he was using the pre amp. Piro Patten also had difficulties.
+1 I also think it's quite possible that the expectations of the Ehrlund's output before feedback are totally unrealistic. It's signal is just not as hot as, either the Full Circle, or Realist. Those pickups are simply louder into a number of different amplifiers. Since the Ehrlund operates at Unity Gain or something close to it, it just doesn't have the same punch when you increase the volume.
Ric
You make lots of good points. However, original post I was responding too was about being unusable on certain basses. I think what you are saying about user error and expectations is the key. While I am not playing in a heavy metal band, my jazz group is pretty dang loud, playing 100% outdoor gigs. So far I have never, EVER had a feedback issue with the Ehrlund, and my speaker is always right behind me.
I think that most simply aren't used to the transparency and clarity and lower gain, therefor say it doesn't work. I think that is what Treyzer was saying. I don't recall that he said it was "unusable" That term to me implies that it is rubbish, just plain junk, and is a pretty damning word to use of any gear. I might not like Beringer bass amps for example, but that doesn't mean they are unusable. The graphite endpin that I used to have that slid down to the floor at random times during your gig-that was unusable! Simply made trying to play a nightmare.
I would love to have 10 different basses lined up and pop the Ehrlund on each one, and see what the results are. I bet that in that scenario, the Ehrlund would work just fine for 100% of them, just like a Full Circle or Realist will work for 100% of them. I don't really see why one bass or another would reject any certain brand of pickup.
I wouldn't dismiss Trey's experience so quickly. He's a long time pro with a great sound, feel, and over 30 years of experience. I think that when he said he didn't find it usable for him, he meant exactly that.
It's not a matter of "rejection" (although both of my basses didn't like the Dyn-B at all) as it is "this is not the amplified sound I want out of my bass". Most often this happens when the amplified sound doesn't sound much like the acoustic sound, and the player decides to try to find something that sounds better to them. I wouldn't expect the Full Circle to be the best choice on every bass just because I like it on mine. I've even heard one player get the best amplified sound they could out of a certain bass using a BP-100. Each bass is different.
+1 In my experience, with my bass setup, the Ehrlund Pickup and Preamp, my Walter Woods amps, and a Audiokenisis TC 112, I rarely have any problems with feedback or any tonal issues, on my bass it's almost plug and play. So personally, I love the pickup. It also works through a Genz Benz Shuttle 3.0 10T.
.
Perhaps, but since each bass, pickup and amp combination yield dramatically different results, I'm sure there are some setups where the Ehrlund just wouldn't work all that well. We (me included) tend to compare the pickup we just installed, to the one we just removed. The acid test is always what happens on first few gigs we use it on. If you can't get the sound you need to play, then, at least in my case, the old pickup is going right back on the bass. Just my opinion though.
Now that's just plain scary.
Respectfully, I'd have to differ with you here. Having spent a lot of time with the Realist, IMHO, it doesn't sound as good when placed on an instrument with a laminated top. The Full Circle doesn't seem have any problems with that construction, and it actually sounds better IME. My guess (yes, it's speculation, so I could be wrong) is that the Ehrlund would have the same problem.
Ric
engedi1,
No disrespect intended about the EAP or its proponents. However the EAP is by no means something that is going to work for all users in all situations. Over the years I have had experience with several contact microphones including the EAP, and have found that they all give mixed results in general. If the EAP works well for you, then you are very fortunate.
Best,
-bob
No disrespect intended about the EAP or its proponents. However the EAP is by no means something that is going to work for all users in all situations. Over the years I have had experience with several contact microphones including the EAP, and have found that they all give mixed results in general. If the EAP works well for you, then you are very fortunate.
Best,
-bob
Great points Ric and Chris,
You make a good point Ric about laminate tops. Perhaps pickups like the Ehrlund or Realist that use the top of the bass need to have a nice carved top to sound good. (having written this I am sure 5 guys will now come up and say how they love their realist with a lam bass).
I know nothing works 100% of the time in the db world, since we are talking about huge pieces of wood shaped by hand, and glued together. I am just happy the Ehrlund works so well for me, and I am skeptical of the very negative reports some have given it. Btw, my thunderchild 115 should arrive in a week or two. Can't wait to hear it!
You make a good point Ric about laminate tops. Perhaps pickups like the Ehrlund or Realist that use the top of the bass need to have a nice carved top to sound good. (having written this I am sure 5 guys will now come up and say how they love their realist with a lam bass).
I know nothing works 100% of the time in the db world, since we are talking about huge pieces of wood shaped by hand, and glued together. I am just happy the Ehrlund works so well for me, and I am skeptical of the very negative reports some have given it. Btw, my thunderchild 115 should arrive in a week or two. Can't wait to hear it!
Bob,
Well, I certainly don't know what it is about this pickup that makes it sound so different from bass to bass. Tis a puzzlement indeed. Until now, I thought that maybe the Walter Woods amp was the difference maker, but since you and I have Woods amplifiers, that's obviously not the case either. I wish it worked as well on your bass as it does on mine.
Ric
- Jul 19, 2000
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- Owner/President, Gollihur Music LLC
I will jump in quickly to point out that we've put the EAP on several basses - and we were able to make it work very well on all of them. However, on Bob's Kay (specifically) it took a bit of time and concerted effort to find the perfect placement of the mic. Initially, on that bass we were unimpressed, but after some time fiddling with the placement and distance (more/less putty) we found its happy place.
Just plopping it on your bass in the "general recommended area" - and making a snap judgment based on that quick test - will do you no favors. Shifting it as little as a couple centimeters can make a stunning difference.
We recommend in our tip sheet for the EAP to budget an hour of time for experimentation with pickup placement. It usually doesn't take nearly that long to find the "magic" spot, but it's so worth it when you do.
And no, I didn't mean for that last sentence to sound dirty.
Just plopping it on your bass in the "general recommended area" - and making a snap judgment based on that quick test - will do you no favors. Shifting it as little as a couple centimeters can make a stunning difference.
We recommend in our tip sheet for the EAP to budget an hour of time for experimentation with pickup placement. It usually doesn't take nearly that long to find the "magic" spot, but it's so worth it when you do.
And no, I didn't mean for that last sentence to sound dirty.
I will jump in quickly to point out that we've put the EAP on several basses - and we were able to make it work very well on all of them. However, on Bob's Kay (specifically) it took a bit of time and concerted effort to find the perfect placement of the mic. Initially, on that bass we were unimpressed, but after some time fiddling with the placement and distance (more/less putty) we found its happy place.
Just plopping it on your bass in the "general recommended area" - and making a snap judgment based on that quick test - will do you no favors. Shifting it as little as a couple centimeters can make a stunning difference.
We recommend in our tip sheet for the EAP to budget an hour of time for experimentation with pickup placement. It usually doesn't take nearly that long to find the "magic" spot, but it's so worth it when you do.
And no, I didn't mean for that last sentence to sound dirty.
This is a great point. I have actually done very little experimenting, being pretty happy with the "general recommended area". But I have noticed as I gain experience with the pickup, that moving it closer to the bridge, just 1/2 an inch, makes a pretty big difference. I think on my bass this puts it right over the bass bar, and the tone becomes punchier, louder, but also more midrangey and harsh. No doubt it is sensitive beyond belief and I could see that if you couldn't find the sweet spot right away, or even after an hour, you could get frustrated and just go back to your old pickup. What is easy to forget, is that we probably spent months learning how to use our old pickups, tweaking eq, maybe even buying new amps or cabs that all complimented the old pickup. The Ehrlund is such a departure from all the piezo systems, that it is no surprise that it may take as long or as much of an investment to make it work.
There seems to be some misinformation about feedback around.
The output volume of the pickup has no influence on feedback (only on amplification noise).
The feedback depends on how much radiated air vibration from the amp gets picked up again from the pickup (this is of course freqency dependent and also dependant on the position and direction of bass and amp).
Since the top is a large area to be influenced by air vibration, generally pickups sitting on the top are more sensitive to feedback than pickups closer to the strings.
And since the top is more sensitive to freqency pickup than the strings (which often can be muted before the feedback builds up), the top has a large influence on feedback like the position (and construction) of the pickup.
The best thing to avoid feedback is to provide a strong acoustic signal from the strings (play louder) to keep the amplification factor low. So people playing with a light touch will run quicker into feedback problems than those playing heavy.
If you don't need the high amplification factor for yourself put the amp away from you to reduce the feedback loop amplification factor. Or rise your amp above bass body level or let the amp face the bass from the side, not the back, put it in front of you...
The output volume of the pickup has no influence on feedback (only on amplification noise).
The feedback depends on how much radiated air vibration from the amp gets picked up again from the pickup (this is of course freqency dependent and also dependant on the position and direction of bass and amp).
Since the top is a large area to be influenced by air vibration, generally pickups sitting on the top are more sensitive to feedback than pickups closer to the strings.
And since the top is more sensitive to freqency pickup than the strings (which often can be muted before the feedback builds up), the top has a large influence on feedback like the position (and construction) of the pickup.
The best thing to avoid feedback is to provide a strong acoustic signal from the strings (play louder) to keep the amplification factor low. So people playing with a light touch will run quicker into feedback problems than those playing heavy.
If you don't need the high amplification factor for yourself put the amp away from you to reduce the feedback loop amplification factor. Or rise your amp above bass body level or let the amp face the bass from the side, not the back, put it in front of you...
On my bass, with a Walter Woods MI-400-8 or a Walter Woods Electroacoustic Ultra, into a Thunderchild TC-112, I have plenty of usable signal. I suppose I could get to feedback levels, easily if I actually wanted to but even at relatively high volumes, the Ehrlund works quite well on my instrument.
As I own a 5/8 size Mirecourt Bass the surface area of the top would be less than the more common 3/4 sized instrument so that could definitely be a factor, but feedback hasn't been much of an issue for me. I do ascribe to elevating the cabinet if low frequencies create problems, but again the phase switch on the Ehrlund or it's volume control will most often eliminate these problems. Just my experience though.
Ric
As I own a 5/8 size Mirecourt Bass the surface area of the top would be less than the more common 3/4 sized instrument so that could definitely be a factor, but feedback hasn't been much of an issue for me. I do ascribe to elevating the cabinet if low frequencies create problems, but again the phase switch on the Ehrlund or it's volume control will most often eliminate these problems. Just my experience though.
Ric
I might add, that feedback occurs generally on a frequency spike in the feedback loop (a frequency that gets more amplification than others). This depends on anything in the feedback loop that is frequency dependant, pickup, amp setting, speaker and room (itself and position and direction of bass and speaker).
Tops of basses are very different and have a large influence on frequency response of the feedback loop. Laminated tops are different to solid wooden tops and thin tops react different than thicker tops. So this is highly bass dependant.
Tops have certain two-dimensional vibration patterns to certain frequencies (eigenmodes). So the position on the top has a large influence on the sound (how much does a cerain frequeny range vibrate on a specific position on the bass and how much other frequency ranges). The distribution of these modes could vary dpending on the material and thickness distribution of the top.
So this is a good reason to accept that every bass is different, and also that picking up a bass is different for each instrument as well, specially close to or on the top of the instrument.
Happily this works for some of us and sadly not as well for others.
Tops of basses are very different and have a large influence on frequency response of the feedback loop. Laminated tops are different to solid wooden tops and thin tops react different than thicker tops. So this is highly bass dependant.
Tops have certain two-dimensional vibration patterns to certain frequencies (eigenmodes). So the position on the top has a large influence on the sound (how much does a cerain frequeny range vibrate on a specific position on the bass and how much other frequency ranges). The distribution of these modes could vary dpending on the material and thickness distribution of the top.
So this is a good reason to accept that every bass is different, and also that picking up a bass is different for each instrument as well, specially close to or on the top of the instrument.
Happily this works for some of us and sadly not as well for others.
I might try the Ehrlund in Copenhagen in one and a half weeks if the tight schedule allows for some experimentation. But I want to try some bows there first. Jonas Lohse is in a two hour range from me, so I can get there or borrow an Ehrlund for a week if I feel the need to check it out.
Currently I like my ATM-35 electret if I need a good acoustic sound amplified. More feedback resistant than the normal studio mics I tried at the same position. It is even battery or phantom powered, so it could be easily used with amp (using the XLR-adapter) or FOH.
For more volume I switch to the Shadow SH-965NFX or the FullCircle depending on the sound I need.
Currently I like my ATM-35 electret if I need a good acoustic sound amplified. More feedback resistant than the normal studio mics I tried at the same position. It is even battery or phantom powered, so it could be easily used with amp (using the XLR-adapter) or FOH.
For more volume I switch to the Shadow SH-965NFX or the FullCircle depending on the sound I need.
DoubleMIDI said:
Jorg,
Wow, you certainly have all different kinds of pickups and Microphones. With that setup, you can just pick the one that works best in a particular situation.
Is the Shadow permanently mounted on the bass alongside the Full Circle.? I had an Audix 35, when they originally came out, I liked the mic, but that clip mounting system really didn't work as well for me, as it has for others. I have a DPA 4099 for those instances, but it doesn't work into a bass amp. The Audix 35 sounded very good for those applications. You may find that the Ehrlund works very well, but you'll have to try it, before you, make the purchase. If it works works, you may find that you won't need all those different piezo pickups. They only way to tell is by using it on several concerts and clubs.
Ric
Hi Ric,
I started with a magnetic Schaller pickup and a plywood bass at school. Then I got a Shadow SH-061 (?) two element bridge wing pickup used which was rather shrill and hard in sound. Could be used by turning almot all the high frequencies out for pizz only. Then I got my carved bass and used it with the Shadow bridge wing pickup.
Much later I got the Shadow SH-965NFX (again used) and this was a better pickup for arco, a bit dark for pizz. But generally not bad.
About a year ago got the ATM-35 and the FullCircle rather cheap (and used again). Every pickup might work for some styles. For Rockjazz, the bridge wing might be better than the others.
All the pickups I got over the last 20 years, most of them during the last two years. So, I think I can stay with them for a while, unless I find something that can replace at least two other pickups.
Unfortunately not much to play for me currently. Might get better in the future.
I started with a magnetic Schaller pickup and a plywood bass at school. Then I got a Shadow SH-061 (?) two element bridge wing pickup used which was rather shrill and hard in sound. Could be used by turning almot all the high frequencies out for pizz only. Then I got my carved bass and used it with the Shadow bridge wing pickup.
Much later I got the Shadow SH-965NFX (again used) and this was a better pickup for arco, a bit dark for pizz. But generally not bad.
About a year ago got the ATM-35 and the FullCircle rather cheap (and used again). Every pickup might work for some styles. For Rockjazz, the bridge wing might be better than the others.
All the pickups I got over the last 20 years, most of them during the last two years. So, I think I can stay with them for a while, unless I find something that can replace at least two other pickups.
Unfortunately not much to play for me currently. Might get better in the future.
Actually, that Chrome Schaller Magnetic was used a lot by several players in St. Louis, when it first arrived on the market. It's only drawback (other than it's timbre) was that since it was a single coil pickup, it would frequently cause A.C. hum through an amplifier because it was grounded to the strings.
I had a Paul Tonnenges four element magnetic pickup that worked far better than the pickups that proceeded it ( the Barcus Berry and Polytone) so, until the Underwood came along, I played through a magnetic pickup for a few years.
I don't have any experience with Shadow pickups since they aren't readily available in the U.S.
That's a very complimentary mic and pickup. I would think that between the Audix and Full Circle, you would have a wide enough tonal palate for both pizzicato and arco playing styles. At some point you might try blending them somehow. Frankly, I'm surprised you need the additional Shadow SH-965NFX, but it obviously fills the gap between the Audix and the Full Circle. .
Sorry to hear that, I hope things get better for you. The number of playing opportunities in St. Louis has definitely declined since 2008, but it has improved somewhat recently. Hope springs eternal.
Ric
