Double Bass Ehrlund "Sweet Spot", anyone?

[William Hoffman]

The Ehrlund "EAP" threads and blogs are proliferating, and for all the great information, it is also getting more difficult to find the most practical experiences and info, to wit, just EXACTLY where are you supposed to put this thing?

It's been said many times, but the great thing about the EAP is you can put it virtually anywhere you want. I had mine in several spots when I first got it and then left it alone for over a year. It sounded good there, but yesterday I moved it to a new spot and the sound was actually much improved.

This is what I learned, which I thought might be worth posting:

In the attached photo you can see where I have the EAP now. Before this I had the EAP about two inches further up, closer to the bass bar, and just off to the side of the E string ff-hole. (There are some putty spots there, which I unfortunately am not able to get rid of by rubbing.)

I think a critical difference is that the old spot was on finer grain. You can see that the wood grain just 1 inch or so to the right of the new spot is denser and finer. On that old spot, the EAP transmitted a somewhat harder, harsher, flatter and mid-rangier sound. I wanted to find out what the EAP would sound like on the broader, coarser grain and also further away from the bass bar. The sound transmitted by the EAP on the new spot is air-ier and deeper sounding, without losing the good acoustic mic-like sound and finger articulations I had before. The new spot is

• further away from the bridge foot
• further away from the bass bar
• down under the E-string ff-hole
• on wood that has larger broader grain

I am not saying the size and spacing of the annual growth rings in the top wood is the sole factor here. My EAP is also now attached to wood that is not as dampened by bridge foot and/or bass bar as it was before. To put that another way, I moved the EAP to a spot that I think may also be freer to vibrate, or gives a vibration that is better for transmission by the EAP.

If your bass does not have a carved top, then my experience may not be of any practical value for you. If your bass does have a carved top, the size and spacing of the annual growth rings in the wood in your top can, I think, be an indicator among others that might help you find your sweet spot for the EAP.

It would be great to see any comments on this or other "sweet spot" finding tips you might have for the EAP.

P.S. any tips for getting that putty out of the grain on the old spot?

 

[kevteop]

I've only had one for a couple of weeks but I've found the way you mount the mic makes a big difference.

If your putty is closer to the middle of the mic (or if when you push it down it splodges towards the middle a lot) you get a sound which is dominated by the midrange. Also the closer you mount it to the table the more compressed it sounds. For me the best fit was very small spots of putty right out at the corners and the mic sitting about 1mm above the wood.

But like you I've found there are a lot of good places to put it, it's a matter of what kind of sound you want to get out of it.

 

[William Hoffman]

I couldn't agree more with all of that. Mine is also mounted with three tiny bits of putty, with the underside of the pickup just about 1 mm off the top. Where on your bass do you have the EAP now?

 

[kevteop]

Currently mine is about an inch and a half south of the bridge feet, and right up against the E side F-hole. It's a very forward sound but it was the best balance I found without using any EQ.

In the position you're using I found I got a good open sound that I thought would be good on a recording but I thought it was a little bit scooped and produced more bass than I thought would be practical live, so I continued moving the mic around when I should've thought 'I can easily fix that with EQ' and rewarded myself with a pork pie.

 

[swingingoodtime]

It would be great to see any comments on this or other "sweet spot" finding tips you might have for the EAP.

P.S. any tips for getting that putty out of the grain on the old spot?

Hi Will,

Amongst the many threads on this same topic, there's one currently running here: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f4/ehrlund-blog-sort-909299/

My contribution to that got some good feedback in terms of its descriptiveness, so I'll repost it here on your thread: I've found the best tone comes from locating the pick up on the outer side of the bass bar (about 4 inches below the bridge); as close as if it were pressed up against it on the inside (but not directly over it, as the bass bar damps the vibrations too much). This limits excessive boominess, improves clarity and minimises feedback.

Of course, YMMV.

Re getting rid of putty out of the grain; dab at it semi-firmly with a clean fresh ball of the same putty. It'll adhere to itself and eventually pull all of the putty out bit by bit. This trick also works well with sticky tape residue (using tape to dab instead, that is).

 

[drurb]

Bill--

Thanks for posting about your experience.

...Also the closer you mount it to the table the more compressed it sounds.

That's not my experience as the closer I could get it to the table, the better it sounded. I used tiny balls of putty at the corners and the EAP sits less than 0.5 mm off the table. With thicker balls of putty, the sound was less "direct" and more subject to feedback. I note that my positioning is similar to what Bill settled on. Moving closer to the bass bar also produced a less desirable sound on my bass.

More details of my experimentation, can be found here.

 

[William Hoffman]

Hi Will,

Amongst the many threads on this same topic, there's one currently running here: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f4/eh...this point, seems that is a topic of its own.

 

[swingingoodtime]

Thanks for all that, the tape thing may do the trick. I've been following the blog, of course. Just wanted a thread focused on this point, seems that is a topic of its own.

No worries! Use putty to remove the putty, not tape, in case the tape damages your finish. I only mentioned tape as a handy tip for removing tape residue.

 

[William Hoffman]

I've found the best tone comes from locating the pick up on the outer side of the bass bar (about 4 inches below the bridge); as close as if it were pressed up against it on the inside (but not directly over it, as the bass bar damps the vibrations too much). This limits excessive boominess, improves clarity and minimises feedback.

This wasn't my experience. When I had it that close to the bass bar, the sound coming out of the amp was not as warm or full sounding as it is now, as described in my OP. But that just goes to show how every bass is different.

Just curious: How many different spots on your bass did you try the EAP out on? I had it on about 4 or 5 different spots, but all of them on the E-string side of the bass between the bass bar and the ff-hole. Has anyone tried the EAP out in other places, say in the center of the top? Below the strings under the bridge?

 

[drurb]

This wasn't my experience. When I had it that close to the bass bar, the sound coming out of the amp was not as warm or full sounding as it is now, as described in my OP. But that just goes to show how every bass is different.

Just curious: How many different spots on your bass did you try the EAP out on? I had it on about 4 or 5 different spots, but all of them on the E-string side of the bass between the bass bar and the ff-hole. Has anyone tried the EAP out in other places, say in the center of the top? Below the strings under the bridge?

As I posted in the "blog" thread, I tried the G side and it was awful. As I also posted, my experience matches yours concerning close to the bass bar. Moving the pickup nearer to the bass bar seems to enhance some articulation at the expense of "bloom."

 

[notabene]

I have the Ehrlund on the G side. It is a bright bass, but the pitch has such a great "center" with the Ehrlund on the G side that I am very happy with it there. The only issue I have with it (I blend it with the Full Circle) is that the Bb on the G string is much louder and darker than other notes. This is not happening acoustically. I can easily tame it with the Walter Woods.

 

[drurb]

Thanks for this. Just another example of YMMV with the Ehrlund.

 

[lofreek]

I too have mine on the G side, just below the bridge foot, essentially right on top of the sound post. Sounds fantastic.

 

[Ric Vice]

I have the Ehrlund on the G side. It is a bright bass, but the pitch has such a great "center" with the Ehrlund on the G side that I am very happy with it there. The only issue I have with it (I blend it with the Full Circle) is that the Bb on the G string is much louder and darker than other notes. This is not happening acoustically. I can easily tame it with the Walter Woods.

Notabene,

I wonder if it's possible that the interaction, between the Full Circle and the Ehrlund is causing that? I would assume since you've played the Full Circle and Ehrlund separately, that the Bb doesn't do that normally? The Walter Woods is a perfect match for the Ehrlund, as I have both a Woods MI-400-8 and an Electroacoustic Ultra. It could just be that the Ehrlund is magnifying something that's a very subtile when you play the bass un amplified. Hard to say. Walter's EQ sections are so accurate and warm that they will, as you say tame any beast that might rear it's ugly head.



Ric

 

[notabene]

I wonder if it's possible that the interaction, between the Full Circle and the Ehrlund is causing that? I would assume since you've played the Full Circle and Ehrlund separately, that the Bb doesn't do that normally?

It is the interaction that creates it. Mysterious to me, but so are many things. Sounds very good though, even at pretty high volumes. Each gig location requires adjusting every bit of the signal chain.

 

[drurb]

Notabene,
I wonder if it's possible that the interaction, between the Full Circle and the Ehrlund is causing that?
Ric

Sounds like a resonance is being hit. If so, if you flip the polarity of one of the pickups then it should change dramatically.

 

[notabene]

Sounds like a resonance is being hit. If so, if you flip the polarity of one of the pickups then it should change dramatically.

The overall sound changes radically, one being tubby and one being brightish. But the tubbiness of the Bb remains either way and needs EQing. Acoustically, the over bloom is not there.

 

[Ric Vice]

Sounds like a resonance is being hit. If so, if you flip the polarity of one of the pickups then it should change dramatically.

The overall sound changes radically, one being tubby and one being brightish. But the tubbiness of the Bb remains either way and needs EQing. Acoustically, the over bloom is not there.

Notabene,
With either of my Walter Woods Amps, blending just didn't work well. I purchased a Fishman Bass Blender when they first came to market, in the late 80's. The Fishman combined a Crown GLM 200 condenser mic with the BP-100, I always found that when you combined the signals the timbre of the mic would override the tone quality of the pickup at low to medium volumes, but as you increased the overall volume, the pickup's timbre would start to dominate the mic. Layering them was always very tricky.

Ultimately, I got a much better sound when I switched to a Realist with absolutely, no mic or blender and it sounded far better.
Two years ago I returned to the blended mic with pickup, using a DPA 4099, which sounded fabulous, and the Realist, which in comparison sounded muddy, and indistinct. Once again, as you increased the overall volume on the Headway EDB-1, the Realist would start to dominate the sound. No amount of tweaking the Headway's individual channel volumes would fix that and eventually, the mic would go into feedback. I even had the EDB-1's gain structure modified on Channel 1 to compensate for the Realist's very hot signal. It balanced better with the DPA's volume, but the same flip over occurred when I moved the volume upward.

Once I got the Ehrlund the problem was solved, it sounded realistic, clear, balanced, and will go loud enough for my gigs. In my case, I've always felt that the returns for a blended mic /pickup are minimal. My ears were initially tricked into thinking it sounding better, but after a few tunes your ears begin to discriminate. I know others don't feel this way. I will say that sending the DPA to the house, while using the EAP with my amp onstage, is a great combination. When I moved from the DPA/Realist to the Ehrlund, bingo the best sound imaginable. The engineers at Webster College actually preferred the EAP to the DPA in live concert's with drums, horns, and percussion.

Ric

 

[William Hoffman]

I have the Ehrlund on the G side. It is a bright bass, but the pitch has such a great "center" with the Ehrlund on the G side that I am very happy with it there. The only issue I have with it (I blend it with the Full Circle) is that the Bb on the G string is much louder and darker than other notes. This is not happening acoustically. I can easily tame it with the Walter Woods.

I too have mine on the G side, just below the bridge foot, essentially right on top of the sound post. Sounds fantastic.

Apart from the issue of blending -- where exactly on the G side do you guys position the EAP? Please give us some more detail. Can you post a picture? I wouldn't have thought that directly on top of the sound post would be a good sounding spot!

 

[Ric Vice]

Apart from the issue of blending -- where exactly on the G side do you guys position the EAP? Please give us some more detail. Can you post a picture? I wouldn't have thought that directly on top of the sound post would be a good sounding spot!

Here is a pretty fuzzy picture of the location of the Ehrlund on my bass. Please note, that it is positioned in a very different location from both Les and Williams basses, directly to the left of the E foot of the bridge. Also note, the grain of the wood in that spot. It has a definite swirl and possibly a knot, that is right in the sweet spot on my bass.

Ric