Electric Bass Bow Tools

[MuseChaser]

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There are always going to be those snob music directors who simply will not hire you if you don't already play upright, and in my area, there are those, typically alumni of a university music school that think there is only one way to do things. To me, bass is bass, it can be done with bass guitar as well. The most important thing is to get a good sound, play well, and enjoy what you're doing. You really do have to love music theatre to put up with some of the vexations of the productions and do this over a long period.

A bit of a thread derailment, but need to call out that these types chased me away from playing in my school's Jazz bands in college. College I went to had several Jazz bands, but they only played older big band Jazz pieces. I learned double bass to play in the band for a year and quickly became tired of the music. To the "academics" at that school, Jazz stopped in the 40s... which is crazy to me.

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There are a myriad of situations/shows calling for arco upright bass (Sondheim shows immediately come to mind), and if the show is being produced at an Equity or other professional level, expecting the person hired to play the bass chair to play upright is far from "snobbish" or unreasonable. While bass guitars certainly have a place in jazz ensembles, including Buddy Rich's big band, there is plenty of literature and situations where upright bass is a much, MUCH better fit, and again, there's nothing snobbish about that...simply fact. I wouldn't bring my electric violin to a string quartet gig.

If we're talking community theater, amateur pit, or situations where compromises are welcomed, then fine and no worries. As long as everyone's happy, great. I just take exception to calling anyone snobbish for suggesting the correct instrument be played if possible. "A bass is a bass" isn't any more true than a car is a car or a house is a house. The differences are vast, discernible, and important.

 

[FatBassTone]

@FatBassTone - does your production have any other violin family string players? Or is it a typical community production with a keyboard player playing the string parts?

Also, has the music director specifically asked you to play upright bass? If there are no string players, and the MD did not specifically ask for upright bass, pay NO attention to the bass book saying it's written for upright.

I got fed up years ago with MDs pushing for upright bass in shows with electric keyboards instead of acoustic piano, and no strings. Why would the bass need to be an upright if there is no string section and no acoustic piano? I just went ahead and played a very mellow acoustic electric. Everyone was still happy and I was invited to keep playing those shows. The further away you can get the sound and look from a Fender or other electric, the better for these shows. It's imperative to get everything right and play great, though, obviously.

Specifically regarding your question- It typically doesn't matter that much if you are not playing all the way through a long bowed passage. My approach is to lightly tap the string every couple of measures to keep the note sustaining. I have also done a rapid right-hand finger flutter to approximate the effect of a bow. This works best if you do it close to the bridge saddle, and try not to create much attack that makes it sound like rapid individual notes. A technique that's probably better shown than described. It is not going to sound like a bowed passage, but the sound and pitch is there at least.

More about the theatre sound- I have tried many different basses to get a more mellow, acoustic bass sound. I really like my Ibanez AFB200- it works great with either D'Addario Chromes or tapewound strings. Some of the other basses I've used, and still have are: Epiphone Zeniths, Douglas Viola, Ibanez AGB200, AEGB24E, for examples. I've done string mutes and foam blocks but never really liked that.

If you can get your frequency response to approximate that of an upright, you're close. An AEB is never going to sound exactly like an upright, but close enough for most community and school productions.

Then there are all those modern shows that are specifically written for electric bass, and five-string electric bass..

The musical is Legally Blonde, so it has string parts but they are likely going to be played by the keys, the violin market is pretty sparse where I live. There will be no acoustic pianos, just RD-2000s and the like. They haven't specifically asked for the upright, and I know the MD is willing to cut corners where necessary. The book is written for Five String Electric, Electric Fretless Bass, Acoustic and 5 String Acoustic, however the specific mentions and use of the terms arco, pizz and bow ready tells me acoustic means upright.

 

[jjcarswell]

If the md doesn’t require string bass, then instead of trying to make an electric sound like a bowed bass, which it never will, just back off the volume, move your right hand near the fingerboard and just try to blend…it will be fine…

 

[FatBassTone]

Ahadl beat me to this. He's describing the same thing I was talking about. It's a pretty standard technique used to play long sustained notes written as an arco part.

Permit me to get on a soapbox for a bit. "Just get a double bass." HA. Really? Your reply should be: "You going to pay for it? Pay for my lessons? You going to buy me a car big enough to haul one of those around?" (Myself, I drive a Prius, not a crossover or a pickup.)

It is NOT a trivial exercise for a bass guitar player to move to playing an upright. It's not as simple as just buying one! Going from 34" scale to 42" scale is very challenging. The technique of upright is nearly totally different from that of electric. Plus- you have to have the hands to play upright. Players with smaller hands, like me, will find upright to be painful and tiring, plus you are moving your hand position much more than players with larger hands. In the lowest positions, the reach from lower notes to higher notes in the same position is difficult. Then there is bowing! Learning to bow proficiently takes a great deal of practice, and arguably is best learned with a teacher, and lessons cost money. Well, all of it is best learned with a teacher, to do it well.

Then there is the cost of a decent quality upright, bow, and case. They ain't cheap at all these days unless you find a great deal on a used one. Then you probably will have to spring for a pickup, preamp, and/or microphone.

There are many considerations that make the remark of "just get a double bass" an impractical and dumb remark. Someone who says something like that doesn't know what they are talking about. It is much easier to do some of the things I mentioned in my previous post on an AEB. Find ways to make the acoustic/electric work.

There are always going to be those snob music directors who simply will not hire you if you don't already play upright, and in my area, there are those, typically alumni of a university music school that think there is only one way to do things. To me, bass is bass, it can be done with bass guitar as well. The most important thing is to get a good sound, play well, and enjoy what you're doing. You really do have to love music theatre to put up with some of the vexations of the productions and do this over a long period.

Yeah buying a double bass is certainly not ideal for me, especially as this show requires a 5 string for those parts. Something like an NS WAV 5 would likely be my best option as my eyes water at the prices of some of the actual 5 string uprights. Even then, it's a new instrument that I'll need to learn to play and something tells me the MD is not willing to take the cost of it for me

 

[FatBassTone]

I have needed to do this in a few groups over the years. I do a roll with my pointer and index finger flat (playing above the strings instead of digging in) and hitting the strings with my finger tips. Changing the rate/how hard I hit changes the texture/lets me do swells.

To me it worked better for the effect I wanted than when I saw a friend of mine use a bow on an electric bass. I know most are going to say just get a double bass. Sometimes that is not practical for the given job.

I'll definitely check this technique out! The sound is about as close as anyone's going to get without an actual upright, as the piezo and extended fretboard on the SRF are about as close of an approximation as one can get without an actual upright. I'll be running a comp, volume pedal anyways so that should help accentuate the effect.

 

[evanrunyon]

Yeah buying a double bass is certainly not ideal for me, especially as this show requires a 5 string for those parts. Something like an NS WAV 5 would likely be my best option as my eyes water at the prices of some of the actual 5 string uprights. Even then, it's a new instrument that I'll need to learn to play and something tells me the MD is not willing to take the cost of it for me

This show asking for a five string double bass is an example of the arranger not quite, um, getting what it is they're asking for. When a player doesn't have a C-extension/fifth string, they just take the note(s) up an octave and no one complains (hardly anyone even ever notices).

 

[FatBassTone]

This show asking for a five string double bass is an example of the arranger not quite, um, getting what it is they're asking for. When a player doesn't have a C-extension/fifth string, they just take the note(s) up an octave and no one complains (hardly anyone even ever notices).

The show actually requires a Low B five string, which I'm under the impression is even more niche than a C extension! Here's some excerpts from the songs that list as upright, the last one is also listed as 'bow ready'. Perhaps the Eb would be doable if I downtuned the instrument, but I'm also under the impression that downtuning on an upright has a bit more to it than a regular electric. No idea how they expect me hit that low Bb though!

 

[Wasnex]

There are a myriad of situations/shows calling for arco upright bass (Sondheim shows immediately come to mind), and if the show is being produced at an Equity or other professional level, expecting the person hired to play the bass chair to play upright is far from "snobbish" or unreasonable. While bass guitars certainly have a place in jazz ensembles, including Buddy Rich's big band, there is plenty of literature and situations where upright bass is a much, MUCH better fit, and again, there's nothing snobbish about that...simply fact. I wouldn't bring my electric violin to a string quartet gig.

If we're talking community theater, amateur pit, or situations where compromises are welcomed, then fine and no worries. As long as everyone's happy, great. I just take exception to calling anyone snobbish for suggesting the correct instrument be played if possible. "A bass is a bass" isn't any more true than a car is a car or a house is a house. The differences are vast, discernible, and important.

It's sort of a two way street really. You probably wouldn't purposefully hire an upright player to do a high-energy rock show. An upright could cover the part, but it won't sound right.

In contrast, since competent upright players tend to be fairly rare, a show might need to hire a bass guitarist to cover an upright part.

Let's go a little further down the rabbit hole. Upright players often specialize in either jazz or classical, and they are not always competent across both styles. Ideally a bassist who regularly plays in pit orchestras should be competent on bass guitar, jazz upright, and classical upright. Sometimes you do all three in the same show.

I consider upright and bass guitar to be significantly different instruments. To be a decent player you need to tailor your technique to each instrument. Sure they share the same open strings, beyond that they are pretty different. Years ago I transitioned to one finger per fret on bass guitar, but I still use Simandl 1,2,4 on upright. I.E. I don't even use the same fingering system on both instruments.

 

[evanrunyon]

The show actually requires a Low B five string, which I'm under the impression is even more niche than a C extension! Here's some excerpts from the songs that list as upright, the last one is also listed as 'bow ready'. Perhaps the Eb would be doable if I downtuned the instrument, but I'm also under the impression that downtuning on an upright has a bit more to it than a regular electric. No idea how they expect me hit that low Bb though!

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You don't. The orchestrator is a keyboardist that knows that five-string basses technically exist but didn't bother to check and see if they were at all common (they're not, at least not in North America). And that Bb is what we in the business call "a mistake." Just play it all up an octave.

 

[MuseChaser]

The sad truth is that there are some orchestrators who know very little about the instruments they write for. Some might not realize that a bass sounds an octave lower than written. Some might not realize that a five string stringed bass, while not non-existent, is far from a typical instrument and that even a C extension isn't defacto present on all uprights. I can't begin to tell you the number of shows I've played where the trumpet book goes lower than a written F# below the staff, or a sax book goes lower than written Bb (and not just the low A in a bari sax book).

I'd take the passages notated above up an octave without a second thought. I can pretty much guarantee the MD won't notice...or will like it better if he/she does notice.

 

[ahadl2500]

While bass guitars certainly have a place in jazz ensembles, including Buddy Rich's big band, there is plenty of literature and situations where upright bass is a much, MUCH better fit, and again, there's nothing snobbish about that...simply fact. I wouldn't bring my electric violin to a string quartet gig.

I have no problem with big band jazz and upright was appropriate for the pieces the program played. I do have a problem with those who pretend the entirety of jazz is big band because they are “academics”. Jazz is much more than just the big band era. Limiting it to big band is simply providing an incomplete education in the name of cork sniffing.

I am sure some schools do not have this issue. The one I attended did. It turned me away from their music program. I started with music performance as a second major. Ended up doing mathematical economics as a second major after my freshman year (major I stuck with the full time was actuarial science, so ultimately no music degree for me).

 

[FatBassTone]

You don't. The orchestrator is a keyboardist that knows that five-string basses technically exist but didn't bother to check and see if they were at all common (they're not, at least not in North America). And that Bb is what we in the business call "a mistake." Just play it all up an octave.

Certainly seems to be a mistake, as this book is one of the most peculiar reads I've ever had. About half of the songs are written 1/2 step below how they're actually played and recorded, as well as every version I've found. Some of them even do this halfway through the song, why is beyond me. The way they're written it seems they're rehearsal notes from the original production that they never took out, meaning this is just the way it is now. Likely to accommodate the vocalists I'd assume, however it makes the sheet music very difficult to read as songs in the key of B are really in C, and you'll have what are basically double sharps in the key of G . There's also 200 odd key changes in the musical, so it's just so much fun! I'd assume the reed players are having an even harder time than myself with this.
If only musicals were written by people that actually played the instruments they're writing for

 

[MuseChaser]

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Let's go a little further down the rabbit hole. Upright players often specialize in either jazz or classical, and they are not always competent across both styles. Ideally a bassist who regularly plays in pit orchestras should be competent on bass guitar, jazz upright, and classical upright. Sometimes you do all three in the same show.

Your entire post was dead on, but I really loved the part I quoted above. I play quite a lot of Equity productions with some very fine players. Many are symphonic players, many are mostly jazz players, but ALL of them are extremely versatile. One of the things we all constantly mention to each other is just how much fun it is to play shows, simply because you DO have to draw on pretty much every musical experience, in every genre, you've ever had...and learn some new ones, to boot.

In my youth, as a die hard bop head (piano) and classical "snob," (violin), I used to think playing shows would be a HUGE drag (playing the same thing, night after night, bad music, no room for "artistic expression," blah blah). Boy, was I wrong. Sure, the quality and creativity of the music writing in some shows can be suspect, but there's also some AMAZING literature out there, and a lot of shows require exceptional skills and musicianship to play well. Absolute consistency, performance after performance. Authentic stylistic interpretation in a HUGE variety of styles. Other than a great jazz gig with a listening audience and tremendous players, playing shows is about my favorite gig now. 2 or three hours, nice paycheck, good night. When I get called to do a 52 show run, I'm in heaven.

 

[Wasnex]

The show actually requires a Low B five string, which I'm under the impression is even more niche than a C extension! Here's some excerpts from the songs that list as upright, the last one is also listed as 'bow ready'. Perhaps the Eb would be doable if I downtuned the instrument, but I'm also under the impression that downtuning on an upright has a bit more to it than a regular electric. No idea how they expect me hit that low Bb though!

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In orchestras, you will find a mix of 5-string uprights and 4-string uprights with a C extension . My understanding is 5-strings are more common in Europe and extensions are more common in the US. I am sure it varies a bit from one organization to the next.

Just because a part asks for something doesn't always mean it's required or the composer knew what he/she was doing.

For example:

A certain amount of professional judgement may be required in conjunction with a conversation with the MD. In this case, I wouldn't even bother asking...I would play the Bb up an octave.

 

[MuseChaser]

I have no problem with big band jazz and upright was appropriate for the pieces the program played. I do have a problem with those who pretend the entirety of jazz is big band because they are “academics”. Jazz is much more than just the big band era. Limiting it to big band is simply providing an incomplete education in the name of cork sniffing.

Curious as to what school you attended. Big bands/jazz ensembles are a typical part of a school curriculum simply because it's an efficient way to have a lot of students play simultaneously, but I know of NO jazz educators nor programs that "pretend the entirety of jazz is big band because they are “academics”" or limit the education of their students to a specific dated era of big band music. Yes, history should definitely be studied and big band is a necessary and important part of it; that has nothing to do with putting on airs or "cork sniffing."

There are always portions of curricula that hold little or no interest to certain students. That doesn't mean those portions aren't worth studying. On the other hand, I do recognize that instructors, too, have their specific interests and values and some may tend to focus on certain areas in an unbalanced fashion. I just have a hard time believing that there's an undergraduate school with a jazz program that only teaches big band music, and a small portion of the big band evolution at that.

Are you willing to name the school?

 

[Wasnex]

I have no problem with big band jazz and upright was appropriate for the pieces the program played. I do have a problem with those who pretend the entirety of jazz is big band because they are “academics”. Jazz is much more than just the big band era. Limiting it to big band is simply providing an incomplete education in the name of cork sniffing.

I am sure some schools do not have this issue. The one I attended did. It turned me away from their music program. I started with music performance as a second major. Ended up doing mathematical economics as a second major after my freshman year (major I stuck with the full time was actuarial science, so ultimately no music degree for me).

The little school I attended shut down the commercial/jazz track the semester I started, so I was stuck in a classical track. I wasn't happy about it, but I made the best of the situation. Luckily my peer group was super excited to learn and grow, and I found the attitude contagious.

I didn't graduate, but I learned enough about theory to eventually figure out how to read chord notation and improvise walking bass lines. After I left school I kept practicing and eventually won an audition with a military band, and it was a good match for me. My skill on upright was a huge boon to my success.

 

[ahadl2500]

Curious as to what school you attended. Big bands/jazz ensembles are a typical part of a school curriculum simply because it's an efficient way to have a lot of students play simultaneously, but I know of NO jazz educators nor programs that "pretend the entirety of jazz is big band because they are “academics”" or limit the education of their students to a specific dated era of big band music. Yes, history should definitely be studied and big band is a necessary and important part of it; that has nothing to do with putting on airs or "cork sniffing."

There are always portions of curricula that hold little or no interest to certain students. That doesn't mean those portions aren't worth studying. On the other hand, I do recognize that instructors, too, have their specific interests and values and some may tend to focus on certain areas in an unbalanced fashion. I just have a hard time believing that there's an undergraduate school with a jazz program that only teaches big band music, and a small portion of the big band evolution at that.

Are you willing to name the school?

At this point I am not willing to name the school. Everyone involved in the program retired over 10 years ago. I expect things have changed significantly since then. I should also point out this music program mostly put out music education majors. Jazz bands and combos were an option to get performance related credits. Meaning it was not really a full jazz program. Probably my fault for not going to a different school, but I was there for the quality of the math program.

OP, apologies for the sidetracks. Last one you will get from me. Be sure to let us know how the show goes.