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Double Bass Englehardt C1/EC1 Questions

jdh3000

jdh3000

May 16, 2016
1,702
1,830
#1
Is there a difference between a C1 and EC1? The one I am looking at lists it as C1 but the label inside has EC1 on it. I didn't know if the E was just code for Engelhardt or if it was a different model altogether.

They're asking $1200 for it; it looks in good shape and well kept from the photos. I didn't know what these averaged price wise in today's market.

I would hope it's an honest representation as I would have to drive about 5 hours there. Not many being sold locally.

Unfortunately last year I had to sell my Thompson Hybrid last year due to a pinch I was in. This time I was looking for a Kay or equivalent of a laminat bass as I didn't want to be as concerned with climate conditions as I was the the solid top on the hybrid.

I appreciate any help with this... thanks!
 
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#2
Gollihur says EC-1 has gamba corners, but also says EG-1 is a gamba cornered version of the ES-1. Says the C1 was a very early model Kay.

You might be able to find some more info at this FB page.

Perhaps Steve or someone else will be able to explain the difference between an EC-1 and an EG-1. Maybe a rosewood or maple fingerboard on the EC-1? Mine is an EG-1 and the fb is ebony.

$1200 is within the average range of what I see these offered for. I pretty regularly see them listed for a grand, so I would try to get the seller down a couple hundred. Other points - how well is it setup, etc.

I guarantee, unless you just totally luck out WRT a Kay, you are unlikely to find a decent Kay for anywhere near $1200. IME, closer to $3k (in good shape).

You obviously know what you are looking for. Some people love to hate on these basses. I was at a BG/oldtime camp last weekend. A couple of the biggest pros in that scene took my bass for a spin, had nothing but good things to say about it, and I pretty much had to wrest it back from them. Only a fool would say an Englehardt is the best bass for all uses. But as I've said before, a well set up Englehardt can perform awfully well in oldtime and bluegrass.
 
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#3
Ed S said:
Gollihur says EC-1 has gamba corners, but also says EG-1 is a gamba cornered version of the ES-1. Says the C1 was a very early model Kay.

You might be able to find some more info at this FB page.

Perhaps Steve or someone else will be able to explain the difference between an EC-1 and an EG-1. Maybe a rosewood or maple fingerboard on the EC-1? Mine is an EG-1 and the fb is ebony.

$1200 is within the average range of what I see these offered for. I pretty regularly see them listed for a grand, so I would try to get the seller down a couple hundred. Other points - how well is it setup, etc.

I guarantee, unless you just totally luck out WRT a Kay, you are unlikely to find a decent Kay for anywhere near $1200. IME, closer to $3k (in good shape).

You obviously know what you are looking for. Some people love to hate on these basses. I was at a BG/oldtime camp last weekend. A couple of the biggest pros in that scene took my bass for a spin, had nothing but good things to say about it, and I pretty much had to wrest it back from them. Only a fool would say an Englehardt is the best bass for all uses. But as I've said before, a well set up Englehardt can perform awfully well in oldtime and bluegrass.
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Yes, Kays are usually listed at $3,000. That's why I was shooting for an Enhardt. If I did go for a Kay, I wouldn't have any extra to pay for a new set up and strings. If I did get lucky and find one well setup with strings that worked for me, then I'd be in better shape.

Yea old time and bluegrass is what I'll be mainly using it for.

Most I find are quite a ways away so I have to have faith that the people are honest enough to not sell something that has damage. It's a bit of a gamble.

Thanks you!
 
#7
Ed S said:
Yeah - I gotta wonder where you are at that you feel driving 5 hrs to look at an Engle is your only option.

Don't get me wrong - I love my Engle. But 10 hrs roundtrip to look at one? Makes me glad I live closer to civilization.
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I really don't feel like I'm not living in "civilization", it's just not a big selling item here abouts... most sellers are about that far away in all directions(Except for Palatinos and Cremonas that pop up often)

There are some great players in this area, but if they want to go lay their hands on a decent one, they'd have travel at least that far usually, and only if they are selling one of theirs does one come available locally
I was fortunate finding my last one only a couple hours away, and that's because he got it a few hours away from him, lol!
 
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#9
2003 - a young 'un.

Plenty of people are gonna talk trash about it: the lousy neck joint; the narrow neck, etc. It is what it is. I'd imagine that as you find it it will be a solid, unspectacular serviceable ply. Well set up, IMO, it can be wonderful.

Offer $800, see if they will settle on $1000.

BTW - over the weekend I asked one pro, who was playing a lovely borrowed Kay, what she felt about the "skinny Kay necks." She basically had trouble answering the question, as she's never had any issue with Kay necks and, instead, disliked overly thick (deep?) ones.
 
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#10
Ed S said:
over the weekend I asked one pro, who was playing a lovely borrowed Kay, what she felt about the "skinny Kay necks." She basically had trouble answering the question, as she's never had any issue with Kay necks and, instead, disliked overly thick (deep?) ones.
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Key word being "she." I'm sure a Kay or Engel would sit just fine in the hands of a woman with small hands. For us men with larger hands, they tend to be very uncomfortable.

To each his own.
 
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#13
jdh3000 said:
Unfortunately last year I had to sell my Thompson Hybrid last year due to a pinch I was in. This time I was looking for a Kay or equivalent of a laminat bass as I didn't want to be as concerned with climate conditions as I was the the solid top on the hybrid.
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There are good reasons to play a plywood bass. Fear isn't one of them. New & late model hybrids are pretty sturdy and are not likely crack as long as you keep it in a place where you yourself are comfortable.
 
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#14
Lee Moses said:
We're about the same size, height-wise and probably hands-wise. Do you actually prefer to play skinny necks?
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I'm not trying to be coy, just not sure how to respond.

When I played bass guitar, I always favored my Gibson Grabber, as it had what I considered a "fast" neck. I disliked Rickenbackers and others which I felt had much wider, chunkier necks. So maybe I do have a longtime preference for "less chunky" necks.

I'm hesitant to call what I encounter on Kays or Engles as "skinny" necks, because they do not feel at all skinny to me. They feel very good, and I'm not aware of them causing me any hand problems.

That was one reason I asked this directly of a pro. We banter on these boards about skinny necks, but she responded as tho it wasn't an issue that she had ever considered.

I do know that my Upton has a "more substantial" neck. In my mind, I think of Kays as tending more towards a "V" shape, with others (including my Upton) tending more towards a flattened "U" shape. My Upton feels very nice. While I have never encountered a Kay or other bass that I felt was "too skinny", I HAVE encountered any number of basses whose necks I thought were "too fat and chunky." Not only is the profile far closer to the flattened U, but they are also much deeper from the fingerboard to the back of the neck. As best I recall, I most commonly experience those in cheaper Chinese basses. The most recent one I recall was an Eastman.

It is just weird for me to hear folk say snarky stuff like the earlier comment about tendinitis, and that is just so different from my longtime experience.
 
#15
Plenty of large men play Kay's and don't seem to have a problem with the neck shape. Plenty of women play non-Kays and have no issue with the neck shape. Suggesting that one's sex has anything to do with it is pretty dense.
 
#17
KUNGfuSHERIFF said:
A 2003 Engel will be built more like a whiskey barrel than a bass. They could be good for heavily amplified gigs because they’re too heavy to feed back easily, but it won’t have much of an acoustic voice.
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I'll play mainly in amplified situations. Feedback was issue that I am trying to avoid as much as possible. That tells me something more about it.

Thanks!
 
#18
Ed S said:
In my mind, I think of Kays as tending more towards a "V" shape, with others (including my Upton) tending more towards a flattened "U" shape.
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Weird. I played a bunch of Kays when I was a young'un. Memory is of thin U necks. As a beginner I found the Kay neck very comfortable and easy to play. Later as an experienced pro, I felt they were too thin.

I am 1/2" taller than the average US male.
 
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#19
Wasnex said:
Weird. I played a bunch of Kays when I was a young'un. Memory is of thin U necks. As a beginner I found the Kay neck very comfortable and easy to play. Later as an experienced pro, I felt they were too thin.

I am 1/2" taller than the average US male.
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Why do you find the thinner neck an issue, just the spacing? The neck on my EUB doesn't seem wide compared to the Thompson I had, and it plays nice for me.
 
#20
It's not the width of the neck from side to side, rather the thickness of the neck from top of FB to back of neck. I played Kays for a number of years with no issues, until I started playing as often as three nights per week. At that point, I noticed left hand problems.

At the same time, I wanted to move to an overall better quality instrument, and bought a hybrid with a thicker neck. Problem solved. I was playing about 50% bluegrass, and 50% pop covers in bars (with two different bands). In addition to solving the hand problem, I got an overall much better and more complex sound from the hybrid. My bandmates were playing $10,000 mandolins and $30,000 vintage banjos, so spending a few dollars more to get the best sound I could seemed reasonable to me. That said, I've never understood the rationale that "any bass" is adequate for bluegrass.

Of course I also respect the fact that "any bass" is adequate for any type of music if that is what you can afford.
 
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