ESP MusicCord

[JimmyM]

Vic probably needs the money less than most superstar bassists, but the truth is, without paid endorsements, superstar solo bassists probably don't make much money on performance alone. And since when does having a lot of money make you not want more money?

 

[georgestrings]

Don't be so surprised...

No doubt - fame does not always equal riches...



- georgestrings

 

[synaesthesia]

What's most amusing is that said 'golden ears' consistently are unable to identify the cables that they use in their own systems with any more accuracy than one gets with a roll of the dice.

+1. ... all the cliched metaphors roll of the tougue when they speak of imagined benefits....the hifi world will say wider and deeper soundstaging, sweeter highs, more controlled bass.....the muso's will say tighter more defined bass/mid/treble, more punch, more gain....

 

[kelleysdad]

"The whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence."

 

[seamonkey]

Maybe just a simple blind test would be adequate. People can do this themselves. You'd normally have to do some gain matching but it's not going to matter much for power cords.

The gear is placed in front of an outlet. A "test admin" is designated that will be the one switching the cables.

A subject faces away from the gear so as not to see it, the cable, or the admin.

The admin plugs in one of the cables, and powers on the gear. The gear is adjusted for comfortable listening levels. The knobs must not be touched for the remainder of the tests.

The subject can take as long as they like trying the cable. The subject then writes down what cord they think it is.

The admin will power off the gear and unplug the cable. They will then at random either plug in the same cable or swap for the other cable. When switching cables it's important the the admin be aware voice inflection or physical cable noise from plugging in the different types of cables can tip off the test subject as to which cable is which.
The Admin writes down what if any actual change they made.

The test subject is again given as much time as they want. And again when they're done, they write down what cable they think it is, and this time they write if they thought it sounded "better" or "worst" than before.

Repeat this like 10 or more times. The more the better.

Compare what the tester wrote down, to what the subject thought.

Repeat again with other cables. Repeat at different listening levels for the whole test.

This would only test if someone could tell the difference between cables and which one they thought sounded "better". It won't say if the cable actually is better, you'd have measure it for that.

If this is a piece of gear you're contemplating buying and changing the power cord from the one that ships with it makes a difference, then don't buy the piece of gear - there's something wrong with it.

 

[pdbass]

Sorry I missed all of this. I had gigs.

Anyhoo... there's no way in the world someone could do a test. It really sounds like everyone has made up their mind already....Seriously. I said the difference was subtle, and to half of everyone that responded that's nothing...oh well. Whoa is me.

It doesn't really matter anyway. A cord will not make you better...but neither will 'empirical evidence'. Whatever works.

Got another gig...later.

 

[JimmyM]

Like that makes you special. I had a gig, too, and I still had time to naysay

 

[fdeck]

Sorry, I don't have a gig. I'm a part timer. So I will sit at my computer and relax for a few minutes after putting the kids to bed, washing the dishes, finishing an astounding report for my day job, and maybe thinking about cracking a cold one.

Starting a flame war and then criticizing the respondents for having nothing better to do is a form of trolling.

When threads like this one pop up from time to time, it generally turns out that a double blind test won't happen. It's really more of a pain than one might imagine at first glance. DBT has been used extensively in the laboratory environment for determining thresholds of perception, but I suspect it's overkill for evaluating cables.

More likely than not, a measurement won't happen either. High quality audio analysis is now within the reach of anybody with a personal computer and halfway decent audio hardware (I use my old Dell notebook). There is some free / cheap software that will do an adequate job. However for dealing with mains voltages or high powered amplifiers, getting set up to do it safely, and coming up with a credible dummy load, are hurdles.

In any event, when an industry or interest group give us a reason to have a heightened level of skepticism, then it really makes sense to let them take the first step by telling us what tests will prove their claims. The silence is deafening.

What's left? Of course one could try the cables. That's fine. But it's not the only recourse. Another possibility is to directly apply knowledge of theory (e.g., physics) and engineering practice, and evaluate the concept from what can be known about it. We do this all the time -- it's how we get through life. We expect the world to be coherent.

The usefulness of DBT is really to tell us how to use the results of measurements and theoretical analysis. Everything has an effect. Many effects can be measured. But there's no way to say if an effect is likely to be audible unless we can make an educated guess as to a threshold of audibility. That's really where DBT comes in.

 

[Supertanker]

"The whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence."

Unless you're omniscient then you don't need faith.

It's obvious from this thread that omniscience is among us...

 

[willsellout]

I like to put certain words in bold.

 

[georgestrings]

Like that makes you special. I had a gig, too, and I still had time to naysay

You too, huh???



- georgestrings

 

[bongomania]

Sorry I missed all of this. I had gigs...Got another gig...later.

Funny, I had six hours of EE classes. I took time to post in between about six hours of homework (yes, for just one day).

What fdeck said above is true: you are trolling. Don't know what that means? Google or Wikipedia.

Anyhoo... there's no way in the world someone could do a test. It really sounds like everyone has made up their mind already.

So in other words you were so tired from your gig that you didn't bother to read the fact that all anyone wants is some measurable evidence from a disinterested test source. Which, given enough funding, can in fact be done.

It doesn't really matter anyway. A cord will not make you better...but neither will 'empirical evidence'.

Nobody said anything about making themselves better. We're only questioning whether the product works in reality rather than in a subjective and predisposed personal interpretation.

 

[bongomania]

It's obvious from this thread that omniscience is among us...

Let's think about this. On the one hand we have scientific types saying "we don't see any measured evidence that it should work, within a well-studied and established field, therefore we have no reason to think its wild claims are valid." OTOH we have true believers who say "I had this experience, and nobody can tell me otherwise." The first group are acting on education, not omniscience; the second group are acting on faith, which is associated with all-powerful deity qualities like omniscience.

 

[fdeck]

Let's think about this. On the one hand we have scientific types saying "we don't see any measured evidence that it should work, within a well-studied and established field, therefore we have no reason to think its wild claims are valid." OTOH we have true believers who say "I had this experience, and nobody can tell me otherwise." The first group are acting on education, not omniscience; the second group are acting on faith, which is associated with all-powerful deity qualities like omniscience.

To be fair, speaking as one of the "scientific types," I can't really blame anybody for going with the results of their own listening tests, while being pulled in opposite directions by the many opinions flying around. My main motivation is just to explain the technical approach to evaluating gear, as I understand it, and justify why I think it deserves consideration in some cases.

 

[JimmyM]

I don't see why anyone would get the least bit mad over people questioning the merits of a product that doesn't care to supply its own scientific proof of why it works, especially when said product is from an industry that's full of voodoo science marketing BS. So many people have been getting ripped off by the audio cable industry by playing on the power of suggestion ever since the industry began. So yeah, I demand proof before I shell out $150 for a cable. Everybody should.

 

[bongomania]

To be fair, speaking as one of the "scientific types," I can't really blame anybody for going with the results of their own listening tests, while being pulled in opposite directions by the many opinions flying around. My main motivation is just to explain the technical approach to evaluating gear, as I understand it, and justify why I think it deserves consideration in some cases.

Sure, I can agree with that completely; and although I understand my tone may sometimes obscure my intent, my intent is only to get people to understand the difference between subjective and objective, and to not take it personally when the objective doesn't necessarily jibe with the subjective.

 

[Mark Reccord]

I can think of several purely objective tests that would check the validity of the manufacturer's claims.

The the Impedance and phase shift of the cable at various frequencies can be easily measured and compared to other cables.

The effectiveness of the shielding is easily measured and compared to non-shielded cables. Further to that, the amount of RF that makes it to the power supply rails of connected equipment can also be measured.

Any physical vibration could be measured with an accelerometer.

The frequency response of connected equipment is also easily measured and can be compared to the curves posted in ESP's white paper.

I have the equipment and knowledge to do some of these tests (not the vibration one, I don't have an accelerometer). Unfortunately I'm pretty remotely located.

 

[J.Wolf]

Let's think about this. On the one hand we have scientific types saying "we don't see any measured evidence that it should work, within a well-studied and established field, therefore we have no reason to think its wild claims are valid." OTOH we have true believers who say "I had this experience, and nobody can tell me otherwise." The first group are acting on education, not omniscience; the second group are acting on faith, which is associated with all-powerful deity qualities like omniscience.

I thought i was relying on my ears, on experience, not at all on faith. To the contrary, i was pretty faithless going into my testing. I was completely expecting it to be bunk. I think your statement inaccurate, if you are putting me in the second group.

And no, I wouldnt do the same thing for a brand new untested pharmaceutical, as you asked. I don't really see the analogy you're trying to make, but I'm pretty sure nobody had serious side affects, liver toxicity, or drug interactions from testing an ESP cable. If you're asking if I would blindly trust a product based on the manufacturers claims, then as I said, I was fully expecting the ESP to be snake oil. IME it was not, does that make me blindly faithful? I'm testing with my ears, not faith.

 

[Eminor3rd]

Sorry I missed all of this. I had gigs.

Anyhoo... there's no way in the world someone could do a test. It really sounds like everyone has made up their mind already....Seriously. I said the difference was subtle, and to half of everyone that responded that's nothing...oh well. Whoa is me.

It doesn't really matter anyway. A cord will not make you better...but neither will 'empirical evidence'. Whatever works.

Got another gig...later.

Pretentious?

 

[Eminor3rd]

I don't see why anyone would get the least bit mad over people questioning the merits of a product that doesn't care to supply its own scientific proof of why it works, especially when said product is from an industry that's full of voodoo science marketing BS. So many people have been getting ripped off by the audio cable industry by playing on the power of suggestion ever since the industry began. So yeah, I demand proof before I shell out $150 for a cable. Everybody should.

Amen. +1. Well said, Jimmy.