ESP MusicCord

[georgestrings]

I also find it impossible to believe that a power cable would change anything unless compared to a junk cable. But I sure would love to see some real evidence one way or the other.

Nearly 30 years as an electrician and electronics tech leads me to believe that it is physically impossible for a 6' power cord to magically change power that has already been delivered through 50' of romex - that's just common sense...



- georgestrings

 

[Supertanker]

It's interesting how every single positive test result comes from people who just plugged in and listened, with no scientific method and no claims to understanding how the equipment works.

And what's wrong with that?

Music is about hearing and listening.

Isn't it?

Another thing the inventor of the cord mentioned to me was that they are in negotiations with several amp manufacturers to make his cord the OEM cord for their amps...

 

[jobu3]

If someone wants to send me their expensive AC cable, I'll hook it up with the iamp 800 I have due on Monday and my TF550B and run it through my Bergantino AE112 and Aguilar 112 in the same position, in the same room with the same gain settings thoughout the entire signal path on each amp playing a pre-recorded bassline through each identical set up on an Auralex GRAMMA pad where the only variable is the AC cable and I'll record it with my Zoom H2.

That's two higher end heads through two higher end cabs.

If someone tells me how to post recordings online, I'll put them up and everyone can judge for themselves if the sound is different.

 

[seamonkey]

And what's wrong with that?

Music is about hearing and listening.

Isn't it?

Another thing the inventor of the cord mentioned to me was that they are in negotiations with several amp manufacturers to make his cord the OEM cord for their amps...

Hearing and listening are highly fallible. There are auditory illusions just the same as there are optical illusions. Ears change over time. Teenagers can hear high pitched ringtones where their teachers can't. A common cold can affect your hearing. You get "use to" sound, something sounding loud is OK after a while. What sounds "familiar" is often what sounds best to us.

This "cord" could degrading the performance, but because it sounds more familiar someones subjective opinion is it sounds better.

It's easier, cheaper, and reliable to degrade the performance to reach familiarity in a controllable way. Using signal processing and not trying to control it by different cables, or swapping components.

I find it hard to swallow the OEM deals with any serious gear manufacturer. The engineers in the such organizations are smart enough to design a power supply capable of filtering mains power including typical interference found in real life. Part of this engineering design is spec'ing and then testing a power cable attached to the system.

 

[seamonkey]

If someone wants to send me their expensive AC cable, I'll hook it up with the iamp 800 I have due on Monday and my TF550B and run it through my Bergantino AE112 and Aguilar 112 in the same position, in the same room with the same gain settings thoughout the entire signal path on each amp playing a pre-recorded bassline through each identical set up on an Auralex GRAMMA pad where the only variable is the AC cable and I'll record it with my Zoom H2.

That's two higher end heads through two higher end cabs.

If someone tells me how to post recordings online, I'll put them up and everyone can judge for themselves if the sound is different.

In my opinion.
This would be just another subjective opinion.
You'd need to follow blind testing or ABX testing methodologies if you wanted to use peoples ears to see if they can hear a difference and if they perceive it as an improvement.

Even then, the perception of an improvement may be a degradation over what the manufacture designed the gear to do.

Even before you get to ear testing, the manufacturer could show typical line and inductive interference from a standard cable versus their high priced cable. Maybe with a couple of power supplies attached so they can show what actually gets through the power supply. I doubt anything gets through, except for very badly designed gear, that wouldn't be worth an expensive cable.

 

[Supertanker]

Music is about hearing and listening.

Fallible or infallible, that's the bottom line...

 

[tombowlus]

Tom Bowlus might.

I am hopeful that at some point in the future, we (Bass Gear Magazine) will be able to do a power cord shootout, with both listening tests and empirical measurements. There are challenges with each, though, and I'd want them to be as fair, accurate, and hopefully useful as possible. It will take time to perfect the testing methodology. Plus, there are several shootouts (instrument cables and strings are likely to be the first two) which we would like to handle before we move on to power cords.

Tom.

 

[NickyBass]

If someone wants to send me their expensive AC cable, I'll hook it up with the iamp 800 I have due on Monday and my TF550B and run it through my Bergantino AE112 and Aguilar 112 in the same position, in the same room with the same gain settings thoughout the entire signal path on each amp playing a pre-recorded bassline through each identical set up on an Auralex GRAMMA pad where the only variable is the AC cable and I'll record it with my Zoom H2.

That's two higher end heads through two higher end cabs.

If someone tells me how to post recordings online, I'll put them up and everyone can judge for themselves if the sound is different.

It seems like we can't get an agreement on how to best proceed. Everyone has a different opinion on how to perform a valid test----which leads me to believe that even if someone was skeptical, and for some odd reason, the tests convinced them otherwise, then someone else will find a flaw in their test and we'll have to start all over again.

If everyone 'KNOWS' that it is physically impossible, then there should be a standard that led them to that conclusion.

 

[bongomania]

Don't hate the player...
Hate the game...

It looked to me like his post was quite specifically hating the game, saying nothing about the individual player.

don't take my word for it, try one for yourself! Then this whole conversation is a moot point. You either think it works or you don't, its worth it or its not. But at least you're coming from an experiential perspective at that point.

Would you say the same thing about a new experimental medicine that hasn't been tested by anyone other than the company that makes and sells the pills?

you can't really expect everybody to have the knowledge and equipment to test it 'scientifically.' We are an aural people.

Nobody here has indicated that we should all have the testing technology, for the exact same reason as the medicine example above. We rely on certified, heavily regulated independent agencies to perform this testing in advance of our purchase. And every field of science has such agencies. Naturally, they cost money to hire. That's the big hangup with us as individual musicians, and even as small organizations of musicians.

This is why I said that the scientific method can be just as 'flawed' as the listening test.

Would you mind going back and looking again at the posts you quoted? They do not support what you just said there.

And what's wrong with that? <testing with ears, not science>

I (and others) have already explained very clearly what is wrong with that. Please go back and re-read.

Another thing the inventor of the cord mentioned to me was that they are in negotiations with several amp manufacturers to make his cord the OEM cord for their amps...

All that means is they made a phone call or email presenting that idea, and the amp company said "maybe... we'll get back to you on that."

It seems like we can't get an agreement on how to best proceed. Everyone has a different opinion on how to perform a valid test----which leads me to believe that even if someone was skeptical, and for some odd reason, the tests convinced them otherwise, then someone else will find a flaw in their test and we'll have to start all over again.

I really wonder if you are reading the posts here. There has been a consensus among the science-minded folks about exactly what type of testing is needed. The only "different opinion" comes from people who are saying "I'll send my cord to anyone who wants to listen to it, or I'll post some clips". Those are not scientific tests, therefore they are not in any way disagreements about how to perform a scientific test.

If everyone 'KNOWS' that it is physically impossible, then there should be a standard that led them to that conclusion.

Yes, and the electricians and electronic engineers here have degrees in this field, degrees based on training in those standards.

 

[jobu3]

Better or not is not what my test would show. All it would show is differences in tone or none in as scientific a manner as possible.

I wouldn't offer my opinion and actually do it where each set up is defined for it's components except for the AC cables. There is your blind test.

Everything is identical from the pre-recorded bassline to keep it even, to the set up/placement of the cab in the room, set up/placement of he mic, recording procedures etc.

Better or worse or indifferent is up to the listener but opinions given after the cables have been identified don't matter because then there is bias.

I want to hear a recording of identical signals (to take out user error or bias) through identical set ups where the only variable is the AC cord and see if there is a difference.

Start there.

 

[NickyBass]

I really wonder if you are reading the posts here. There has been a consensus among the science-minded folks about exactly what type of testing is needed.

Ok, then are you interested in testing the cable?

 

[bongomania]

In retrospect I think my tone was rude there, I apologize for that.

Here are some links that people may find helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
http://physics.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node5.html#SECTION02120000000000000000

 

[willsellout]

Honestly even if you test it I'm not going to pay 180.00 bucks for a cable. Really this is a lose/lose for the manufacturer. Regardless of the outcome people that pay that much for a cable are still going to say they hear a difference and continue to buy them. People that aren't willing are not going to buy either way. The manufacturer has no incentive to do anything. If I were in their shoes, I'd keep on keepin' on. I'd simply disregard any "testing" done as flawed (unless it was in my favor, at which point I'd raise prices) and keep padding my pockets.


Dan

 

[georgestrings]

Fallible or infallible, that's the bottom line...

Actually, I'd say the bottom line is a fool and their money parting ways, but YMMV...



- georgestrings

 

[jobu3]

Honestly even if you test it I'm not going to pay 180.00 bucks for a cable. Really this is a lose/lose for the manufacturer. Regardless of the outcome people that pay that much for a cable are still going to say they hear a difference and continue to buy them. People that aren't willing are not going to buy either way. The manufacturer has no incentive to do anything. If I were in their shoes, I'd keep on keepin' on. I'd simply disregard any "testing" done as flawed (unless it was in my favor, at which point I'd raise prices) and keep padding my pockets.


Dan

I'm not about to throw away $180 on something I don't need. For the sake of science, I would do it with one loaned to me.

I sound fine with my current one, or maybe I should specify that a cable won't make me sound better.

 

[NickyBass]

I would be willing to purchase an ESP cable to test IF:

-It was done in some quantifiable way. (ie, no charts, no cable)
-The testing procedure was agreed upon by everyone. (ie. No waiting until after the test to say that it was flawed.) It would have to be discussed before I shell out any money.
-The tests are performed by three different TBers who are electricians or electrical engineers by trade. All three have to be supporting members with over 1000 posts. (Just so I know that the cable isn't going to disappear.
-The tests have to be performed by the 'snake oil' group. Which seems to be most of the electrical engineers. Hmmm...is that a coincidence???
-It is understood that we are not talking about being 'worth the money.' We are talking about 'better than' and by what factor.

Anyone interested????

 

[mat666]

wow this is what you get when you share your experience....well I'm happy to see those who tried it saw a difference

btw I dont think Victor Wooten needs ESP money...

 

[jobu3]

btw I dont think Victor Wooten needs ESP money...

Don't be so surprised...

 

[kelleysdad]

This thread can be summed up with one phrase: &#8220;Never let a few facts get in the way of a good story.&#8221;

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I dont think Victor Wooten needs ESP money...

I doubt that Tiger Woods needs Gillette money either, yet there's his smiling face all lathered up on TV.

It seems like we can't get an agreement on how to best proceed.

It's called double-blind testing. Many cables, signal, speaker and power, have been double-blind tested. The good news for the cable nuts is that audible differences can be discerned. The bad news is that in no double-blind test that I'm aware of have the listener's preferences ever bore any correlation to the cables price or specifications, either actual or claimed. Nor have 'golden ear' listeners shown results any different than the average consumer. What's most amusing is that said 'golden ears' consistently are unable to identify the cables that they use in their own systems with any more accuracy than one gets with a roll of the dice.