That's not the point. It's that someone might potentially be using the placebo effect to rob someone of their money. It's not right to sell someone something that doesn't really do what it's intended to do.
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ESP MusicCord
- Thread starter pdbass
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That's not the point. It's that someone might potentially be using the placebo effect to rob someone of their money. It's not right to sell someone something that doesn't really do what it's intended to do.
Ya, having Vic is a real feather in the cap that will lead to many sales. Can't argue that.
But sooner or later, he's going to have to put up some legit science instead of feel-good stuff.
Absolutely. If there's a reason a certain power cable sounds better than another, it should be easily proven scientifically. Using your basses/amps analogy, there are scientific reasons that are easily provable why some basses and amps sound different than others. Why should this guy get a pass? And why wouldn't you want scientific proof? Unless of course you like throwing away money. People in the 1800's swore they were cured of their ills after drinking Dr. Calhoun's Snake Oil Elixir, even though nothing in it could possibly cure people of anything. It was a ripoff. Why would you want to get ripped off?
In defense of Dr. Calhoun, I did indeed buy some of his elixer and my bunyons disappeared forthwith.
There was a white paper somewhere which Dave Funk had a link too.
edit:
here it is, I think: Invalid Link Removed
In the 1970s, the mass market and many players, top pros and amateur, believed that brass made an electric guitar sound better. Your Les Paul sound better with a brass nut despite never playing with open strings, and your Les Paul pickups sounded better with brass pickup rings. Heavy was better. The heavier your guitar body, the more brass you have in al la Yamaha SG2000, the better it sounded. I think Ibanez made a complete brass guitar at one trade show.
The 80s came and with light and airy digital reverb, all the mass disappeared. Basswood, lightweight bodies sounded like they sustianed forever. Heavy was out. Ears changed.
At the end of the day, what you hear is a mix of actual sound, the way your ear operates, the environmental conditions and the cultural conditions in which you hear it.
Cultural conditions don't seem like they count for anything, but they do. I certainly don't hear things the same way as I did in 1975, or 1984, or 1992. I'm reasonably sure I hear things the same way as yesterday, though
You rich guys can discuss these cables.
$130 for a cable? I'm thinking opportunity costs.
-- New stand for my newest bass and some other basics.
-- 6 trips to the dry-cleaners
-- A lot of gas for my fuel-inefficient car that's great for hauling my bass gear
-- Taking women out on dates
-- 1/4 of my rent
Unless the mere presence of that cord is gonna get me a gig, the rich guys can debate over it, smell it, have double-blind tests, and fetishize this cord.
$130 for a cable? I'm thinking opportunity costs.
-- New stand for my newest bass and some other basics.
-- 6 trips to the dry-cleaners
-- A lot of gas for my fuel-inefficient car that's great for hauling my bass gear
-- Taking women out on dates
-- 1/4 of my rent
Unless the mere presence of that cord is gonna get me a gig, the rich guys can debate over it, smell it, have double-blind tests, and fetishize this cord.
A bit of analysis of this white paper:
I'd like to see some actual evidence that AC energy causes power cables to vibrate. Accelerometer measurements or some other tangible piece of evidence. Transformers do indeed physically vibrate, but it's not the conductors vibrating and it isn't due to the law of physics stated in the white paper. The magnetic fields cause the iron core of the transformer to physically deform. It's a well documented phenomenon called magnetostriction and it is a property of iron not copper. The last time I checked, power cables don't have iron cores, so magnetostrictive vibration is not an issue.
Shielding is actually not a bad idea, but more for attenuating the fields created by the current flow in the cable than for preventing RFI pickup by the cable. Any RF picked up in the power cable should be quite decimated by power supply filtering. If any RF actually gets into the audio circuit of a piece of equipment via the power cable-power supply then it is very poorly designed indeed.
I'd also like to know the test conditions that led to the frequency response graphs published in the paper. I've tested a lot of high end power cords (many costing an order of magnitude more than the ESP) and none of them have been able to modify the measured frequency response of a piece of equipment.
And this:
makes my engineering degree cry.
I'm not saying that these cables don't make any difference because I've never tried these particular ones. However, my experience and background with other high end cables leaves me quite skeptical. The 'science' in that white paper doesn't help the manufacturer's case, IMO.
alexclaber
Commercial User
I shall take the Paul Abdul approach: "Well they look gorgeous".
That 'White Paper' is an embarrassment to real white papers. Is this paragraph an April Fool?
"An explanation of power cord circuit design objectives requires a little background in a/c power transmission. The prevailing wisdom is that power cords need only carry electrical energy only at 60hz (North America). Not! The a/c frequency that we all know is actually a carrier frequency. Energy is stored and transported in magnetic fields which are capable of carrying energy over many miles with very low loss. At some point near the end point of usage, the coaxial cable is terminated where magnetic energy converted into electrical. Although any conductor carrying a current is surrounded by a magnetic field, the energy carried by typical residential wiring is primarily electrical, and it is available at all frequencies. "
Yes, they are clearly having a laugh.
Alex
That 'White Paper' is an embarrassment to real white papers. Is this paragraph an April Fool?
"An explanation of power cord circuit design objectives requires a little background in a/c power transmission. The prevailing wisdom is that power cords need only carry electrical energy only at 60hz (North America). Not! The a/c frequency that we all know is actually a carrier frequency. Energy is stored and transported in magnetic fields which are capable of carrying energy over many miles with very low loss. At some point near the end point of usage, the coaxial cable is terminated where magnetic energy converted into electrical. Although any conductor carrying a current is surrounded by a magnetic field, the energy carried by typical residential wiring is primarily electrical, and it is available at all frequencies. "
Yes, they are clearly having a laugh.
Alex
FWIW, I am on the snake oil/emperor's clothes calling camp.
Dave Funk made a good point though in the Ken Fischer forum, I'm paraphrasing: "If you guys believe and can tell differences between tubes, why can't you believe this AC cord can make a difference?"
I don't doubt there may be a perceiveable difference, but all circuits are holistic, they are more than the sum of parts, and most circuits are designed to accept a range of power supply. Mediating between the circuit and the power it needs will be different if your original cable was crap at doing that properly in the first place.
Sorry to be a disbeliever, but you know I have used the magic producer's knob on my instruments or amps many many times. When I was a live show player, I as bass player, used to get blamed for any audible hum, and often it was supposed that my DI was at fault, which they would take out and replace with a mic. On every occasion I unplugged the mic, fitted back the DI and gave the soundman a thumbs up; and everytime I got a thumbs up back.
Dave Funk made a good point though in the Ken Fischer forum, I'm paraphrasing: "If you guys believe and can tell differences between tubes, why can't you believe this AC cord can make a difference?"
I don't doubt there may be a perceiveable difference, but all circuits are holistic, they are more than the sum of parts, and most circuits are designed to accept a range of power supply. Mediating between the circuit and the power it needs will be different if your original cable was crap at doing that properly in the first place.
Sorry to be a disbeliever, but you know I have used the magic producer's knob on my instruments or amps many many times. When I was a live show player, I as bass player, used to get blamed for any audible hum, and often it was supposed that my DI was at fault, which they would take out and replace with a mic. On every occasion I unplugged the mic, fitted back the DI and gave the soundman a thumbs up; and everytime I got a thumbs up back.
I'd counter that by saying that tubes are active devices with tangible differences in parameters that are actually in the audio circuit. Power cables are passive and are not actually in the audio circuit. There is a lot more potential for different tubes actually making a sonic difference than for a power cable to do so.
I'll refrain from asserting that this particular cable doesn't or can't make a difference as I haven't tried it, but like I pointed out in my other post, the 'science' behind it is extremely suspect.
From the White paper:
"The Essence REFERENCE cordage design addresses both RFI and EMI interference. The result is a startlingly quiet background from which low level signals such as room reflections are more apparent."
For even the strongest of beleivers, this is pure hype when it starts to claim responsibility for better room acoustics.
"The Essence REFERENCE cordage design addresses both RFI and EMI interference. The result is a startlingly quiet background from which low level signals such as room reflections are more apparent."
For even the strongest of beleivers, this is pure hype when it starts to claim responsibility for better room acoustics.
Is there any 'proof' that this guy can offer that someone who is dead set against this cord will believe? If he sets up a test, then everyone will say it's flawed. And if it's found out to not be flawed, then everyone will say that he is making up the numbers. And if it's found out that the numbers are true, then everyone will say that the test instruments must not have been calibrated.
Perception works both ways. If someone doesn't want to believe it, no 'scientific proof' is going to convince them. So, I say that the only way to know for sure is to listen to it. I'm not talking about a double blind, vacuum sealed test....I'm just talking about plugging it in and being honest with oneself.
If the cable was $20, would everyone be singing it's praises??
Perception works both ways. If someone doesn't want to believe it, no 'scientific proof' is going to convince them. So, I say that the only way to know for sure is to listen to it. I'm not talking about a double blind, vacuum sealed test....I'm just talking about plugging it in and being honest with oneself.
If the cable was $20, would everyone be singing it's praises??
I cut my own lengths of cable from good, and appropriate to the function, stock. I wired my own commercial studio. I don't have a problem if someone wants to spend money on a power cable in the belief they wil improve their sound. It is hard to speak to people about what they beleive. I have a hard time convincing people that it is a waste of disk space to record rehearsals with a digital recorder at 96Khz when half that sampling rate will be more than good enough.
But hey, if it makes you feel any better, go for it.
- Dec 18, 2000
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I don't know, not being dead set against it - though I do feel that spending money elsewhere on something actually in the audio chain will yield results that are likely to matter much more to me, regardless. I've already long since sorted out any ground loop or externally-derived noise problems.
But I am highly unlikely to buy any product that is marketed with junk science. That "white paper" alone is a real deterrent.
See, it's different for me, because I don't have a backround in electronics. I'm not arguing for the cord...I'm just saying that I would like to hear it before jumping to any conclusions.
btw, I think that $150 for a power cord is insane. Even if I felt that it was the greatest cable in the world, I would have a hard time bringing myself to recommend it to anyone else. There are more important things for the money---but I still remain open minded to it.
btw, I think that $150 for a power cord is insane. Even if I felt that it was the greatest cable in the world, I would have a hard time bringing myself to recommend it to anyone else. There are more important things for the money---but I still remain open minded to it.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
Gee, a guy putting his name on something that doesn't work because he's paid to do so. Hard to believe.
That's what snake oil purveyors are counting on.
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