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Everyone has to be rich now??

Everyone seems pretty much in agreement here.
Which really surprises me.
So why doesn't anything happen to counter this situation - the rising inequality of money distribution - ever get started?
(It's the way that finance now works that creates the differences in wealth. It should be the ongoing concern.)

What is different about the current time as compared with other decades going back to the second world war?
It seems like there was a greater awareness of the reality for the average person, working class, however you want to describe it.

And now we live in an era that seems to worship the wealthy, the glittery fantasy of celebrity culture, and if you believe the dominant story of popular culture, everyone seems to feel like they are a part of it, the bizarre selfie mentality.
Chirstopher Lasch wrote The Culture of Narcissim in 1979.
It hadn't even really started yet.
I don't know what to call what we have now, collective delusion?
 
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TL;DR in return: I didn't assume ANYTHING about you or your particular situation or history. I simply stated that your cut-and-dry metrics for fiscal responsibility were too simplistic for the much broader, systemic, often insurmountable factors facing people in today's economic environment. It sounds like you dealt with a lot in your past, and you have my sympathies. But my post wasn't personal beyond the matter/material/words at hand that you presented. It was also informed by MY personal experience, and the experience of my friends, scene mates, and professional contacts and what they are dealing with, especially in the wake of cleaning up and recovering after Hurricane Helene, which only exacerbated inequality and access to the basics where I am, like housing and food. It's easy to tell people to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps' until their bootstraps got washed down a river along with everything they owned. I got lucky there. Many of my friends didn't.

TL;DR in return: I didn't assume ANYTHING about you or your particular situation or history. I simply stated that your cut-and-dry metrics for fiscal responsibility were too simplistic for the much broader, systemic, often insurmountable factors facing people in today's economic environment(s), and those factors can vary wildly depending on where one lives. While I personally agree with them and practice many of them, I think the way you presented them came off as tone-deaf or cold. I'll concede that I read it with a different tone than I should have, but the words are still there, and their meaning didn't change.

It sounds like you dealt with a lot in your past, and you have my sympathies. However, my post wasn't personal at all beyond the matter/material/words at hand that you presented. It was also informed by MY personal experience, the privilege I know I had (that others didn't), how hard my wife and I have had to work to stay ahead/afloat/as debt free as possible where we are (it ain't easy), and the experience of my friends, scene mates, and professional contacts and what they are dealing with now, especially in the wake of cleaning up and recovering after Hurricane Helene, which only exacerbated inequality and access to the basics where I am, like housing and food. It's easy to tell people to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps' until their bootstraps, their jobs, and everything they had got washed down a river along with everything they owned. I got lucky there. Many of my friends didn't.

My 'solution' to much of this doesn't fall in the hands of workers at all. I think workers in general, as evidenced by productivity data in the US, shows that American workers are working harder than they ever have.... for wages which are largely flat and fall short in helping them achieve a better quality of life they are obviously putting in the hours to achieve. It falls in the laps of business owners and corporations taking a hard step back and looking at the environment they create for workers. Quality of life matters, and workers seem to get less and less every year for more work. 'Do more with less' has been the mantra since 2008 really. So it is about accountability and action - but not just on the part of workers.
I don’t disagree with you at all.

My point is that we can dwell on the facts you’ve laid out or we can choose to do something about it. From personal experience, it can be hard to do both, and it can be completely demoralizing to do nothing and just dwell on it.

What has allowed me to carve out some amount of personal success in life has been taking action on the things I actually can control. I can learn new skills, I can make myself a more valuable employee, I can be someone who is pleasant that others want to be around and support, I can control my consumption, I can avoid negative people and activities, I can make smart financial decisions, I can go without wants, I can partner up with someone who shares my values, I can educate myself on personal finance, I can set and live on a budget, I can consume healthy foods and media, etc. A lot of these things anyone can do, it just takes willingness to hold the person in the mirror accountable.

You’re correct that this still might be coming from a place of privilege, but I have known enough privileged people who complain, don’t take responsibility, and cite the same facts you do for why they can’t get ahead. Some people are there own worst enemy and would benefit by trying to save themselves rather than wait for a hero to come - because they ain’t coming.

IMHO, IME, YMMV.
 
What is different about the current time as compared with other decades going back to the second world war?
It seems like there was a greater awareness of the reality for the average person, working class, however you want to describe it.

And now we live in an era that seems to worship the wealthy, the glittery fantasy of celebrity culture, and if you believe the dominant story of popular culture, everyone seems to feel like they are a part of it, the bizarre selfie mentality.
Chirstopher Lasch wrote The Culture of Narcissim in 1979.
It hadn't even really started yet.
I don't know what to call what we have now, collective delusion?

Culturally, we were more connected to our neighbors and our community before social media. There was a brief time where the internet didn't really interfere with our sense of community locally, while expanding our reach to others globally. Think late 80s, early 90s, and briefly in the early 2000s. All before social media. TalkBass was a product of that 'sweet spot'.

The era of worshiping the wealthy and glittery celebrity culture was present through the 80s... a product of the times for many reasons. It fell out of favor in the 90s, only to come roaring back in the 2000s to now.... in ways we could not have ever thought possible.

I'd argue that reality TV exacerbated the celebrity worship thing even before social media kicked in, but social media made it worse.... but both are products of the new millennium. Deciding what should and should not be posted online on social media seems to be a generational thing. Older generations tend to over-share, Gen X'ers/Millennials seem to be a bit more hesitant to go all in on it and are skeptical, and younger generations that have always grown up with social media share EVERYTHING. It's a fascinating sociological study for sure.
 
You’re correct that this still might be coming from a place of privilege, but I have known enough privileged people who complain, don’t take responsibility, and cite the same facts you do for why they can’t get ahead. Some people are there own worst enemy and would benefit by trying to save themselves rather than wait for a hero to come - because they ain’t coming.

IMHO, IME, YMMV.

It's a definite balance juggling personal responsibility, empathy, reality, and tough love - that applies to ourselves as well as others. I know people who had everything handed to them who burned out like crazy and coasted and have a horrible work ethic. They were given way more opportunities than I ever had and wasted them. I know others who came from far less who work hard and do everything right and still struggle. Some seem to have hit the perfect balance. It's all a crapshoot really. There are no guarantees, and things can change in an instant. We have to be pragmatic and make the best decisions and strategies that we can with the information and environment we have in front of us at a given time. And I firmly believe that everyone is given a helping hand somewhere along the way - I have seen that so much in the wake of Helene. The myth of the truly, 100% 'self-made' person is just that.... a myth. It's why community matters as much in personal success as it does in our greater success.
 
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The funny thing about the 50s/60s TV shows (cartoons included) is that they were either wildly idealistic and whitewashed the reality of the 'nuclear family' and the 'average family', or they lampooned it in a way that flew over peoples' heads - like Mr. Slate treating Fred like dirt, which was closer to reality in all likelihood.
There's a theory that Flintstones & Jetsons take place in the same post-apocalyptic timeline. The folks in the cloud are the privileged classes and the folks below have been blown back to stone age tech, unaware of one another's existence. I'm actually not sure if that's a thing or if I made it up. Kinda explains the Great Gazoo though...

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Where I live, consumerism is at an all-time high, and due to our low cost of living, consumerism is thriving.

I don't believe the costs are the root cause where I live. I think it's the unrealistic "standards" that people are chasing while they attempt to keep up with the Jones's. I believe this skyrocketed when more and more families became dual income (drastically increasing household income), which allowed a step change in consumerism.

I have multiple Gen Z coworkers who are "struggling", but when you lift the hood, they have a 2,400 sf house, two new vehicles with car payments, student loans, credit card debt, wear nice clothes, eat out constantly, go on international vacations, and either delay having kids or have kids in daycare (basically another mortgage payment). When these people complain, it makes me chuckle, because their choices to have these lavish possessions and life experiences in their mid to late 20's isn't sustainable or realistic. It's just downright dumb.

I get to see this contrasted with my own life everyday. My wife and I live on one income, and make all of our choices accordingly. It's not that difficult, but DOES require us to drive older cars (no car payment), live in a modest home, and take modest vacations while maintaining a fairly strict budget. Here I am, their supervisor, making more than them, rolling up in my beat up 2008 Tacoma while they pull up next to me in their brand new decked out full sized pickup or Tesla SUV.

In some ways, I feel bad for them, because most are only realizing their mistakes AFTER they amass huge credit card debts and car payments. But make no mistake; their choices led to this, not corporate greed. Nobody is forcing them to buy $90,000 trucks, go to Europe, or live in a 2,400 sf house. That's on them.
 
It took my father decades starting at the bottom to have a six figure salary. So that's the new starting point in America or else you're a loser? Was just watching Rocky 2 where he worked at the meat plant and still cold have a wife and family from 1979. I've worked hard at Sears and several factories temping but no white picket fence for me.....
I dunno. My wife and I both with just a High School diploma, managed to own 5 houses, moved 5 times to different states , raised two sons, and are now comfortably retired. We worked hard, were reasonable frugal, only borrowed money for things that provided an opportunity for a net economic gain. We made sure we had job marketable skills, and made a lifetime of continued education. Over my working years combined we had a total of 20 different employers in 8 different fields and never missed a paycheck.

Yes there are $100k jobs out there. The trick is you have to have something to offer an employer that is worth $100k to get it from you.
 
I have multiple Gen Z coworkers who are "struggling", but when you lift the hood, they have a 2,400 sf house, two new vehicles with car payments, student loans, credit card debt, wear nice clothes, eat out constantly, go on international vacations, and either delay having kids or have kids in daycare (basically another mortgage payment). When these people complain, it makes me chuckle, because their choices to have these lavish possessions and life experiences in their mid to late 20's isn't sustainable or realistic. It's just downright dumb.
I didn't want to say this to come off badly but this is well said.

It is area dependent and just my experience I'm 24 and in a class I took we the teacher in our HS talked about the fairy tale problem. This class was about financial responsibility and investing. It was basic but generally fun. But this one lesson stood out, the fairy tale problem is when young adults especially gen-z around within the 20s are more often to be in a serious relationship those ages roughly. The point of the topic is fresh grads or first time full job after college can't save money or blow their early savings... Most people are very serious in my generation I argue about long term goals and such at least in my neck of the woods. My point is many get marry right after college or grad school, and have to do the whole fairy tale life, big wedding, honeymoon, buy a house or attempt to get one, at least rent a very nice one, buy a big car because "we're a couple!" and all that junk. My friend who is a new history teacher burst out laughing because it is all too real he share. He sees it all the time in his field of work of those who secure a job, get marry and go crazy and tried very hard to live the whole suburban consumer life. I honestly can't say much on it, I just want a nice working Japanese sedan, a job that pays, money for basses and all that junk. I don't have a GF so maybe I'm just salty 🤣

On a serious note - I think these Fairy Tale social media lifestyles are to blame, I saw one influencer in Texas, she live the most stereotypical picture perfect lifestyle, got a new giant Cadillac and people in the comments were saying all this stuff of wishing they could make money like them. News flash, they gifted/given it on a discount it since they have 400k followers, yeah that isn't a large number in the grand scheme but for sure its still a giant advertisement to people similar to those influencers lifestyle... half of it is fake just aiding the whole fake lifestyle.

I can add thousand more things to my point but I'll just be a young man screaming at the clouds lol...
 
In some ways, I feel bad for them, because most are only realizing their mistakes AFTER they amass huge credit card debts and car payments. But make no mistake; their choices led to this, not corporate greed. Nobody is forcing them to buy $90,000 trucks, go to Europe, or live in a 2,400 sf house. That's on them.
You absolutely make great points - I made a choice a long time ago to never live above my means (growing up below the poverty line will do that to you). I also know, tho, that it's easier for me than many people due to privilege.

That being said, one of the main drivers of consumerism is corporate greed - no one is immune to marketing & propaganda, and in addition the subscription and services based models (not to mention rampant planned obsolescence and reduction in quality) helps to drive this as well, not to mention cheap and easy credit.

There's no reason why someone struggling to make ends meet should buy a $90k truck; but there is also no reason why a truck should cost $90k.
 
And I firmly believe that everyone is given a helping hand somewhere along the way - I have seen that so much in the wake of Helene. The myth of the truly, 100% 'self-made' person is just that.... a myth. It's why community matters as much in personal success as it does in our greater success.
Exactly. Self made men, pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, etc. - it's all baloney. It's sad how much of our culture looks down on those seeking to get a helping hand.
 
Excep “gig money” dollar wise is the same number it was in the 70’s
I just went to see a local guitar hero play at a bar where the band splits $100. It’s a quartet, so $25. The rest comes from the tip jar. OK, it’s his hometown where he’s always lived, so it’s not a heavy lift to drive over and do a show there. He brought his roadie with him :wideyed: and that guy hauled in all the guitars and amps, set it all up, etc. The rest of the pick up band hauled in their own gear.

So what’s this guy’s resume? 12 years with Joe Cocker both live and in the studio. He was also in a band that recorded two LPs for Island. Did studio work with people like Robert Palmer and recorded a solo album at Abbey Road.

And at 70 years old he’s still out having fun taking gigs for $25 plus tips :meh:
 
You absolutely make great points - I made a choice a long time ago to never live above my means (growing up below the poverty line will do that to you). I also know, tho, that it's easier for me than many people due to privilege.

That being said, one of the main drivers of consumerism is corporate greed - no one is immune to marketing & propaganda, and in addition the subscription and services based models (not to mention rampant planned obsolescence and reduction in quality) helps to drive this as well, not to mention cheap and easy credit.

There's no reason why someone struggling to make ends meet should buy a $90k truck; but there is also no reason why a truck should cost $90k.
Nobody is forcing anyone to get duped by marketing or "propaganda", activate endless subscriptions, or buy $90k trucks. The only reason that $90k trucks exist is because people keep buying them. My first vehicle with air conditioning and automatic transmission was purchased in 2014, and was 6 years old with 100k miles on it. It's what I could afford with cash at the time. Similar Gen Z counterparts are a brand new, financed vehicles twice the size of mine with more amenities than my current home, and similar monthly payments to my home. Those luxuries cost a lot. Simple as that.

Companies will continue making insane products if people keep buying them. The great thing about our society is that NOBODY IS FORCING ANYONE TO BUY THAT STUFF. It's completely free and super easy to NOT buy stuff like that.

While I feel bad for individuals who find themselves riddled with anxiety and debt, I also acknowledge that they aren't victims. They simply made dumb choices with all the information in the world at their fingertips.

Keep in mind, I'm a professional engineer, so my coworkers are not low education or low information folks. Most of them came from upper middle class backgrounds (way beyond what I grew up in), and have been given every opportunity to make good choices, and have enjoyed a lot of privilege in their lives. Their choices have led to these outcomes. They are predictable, natural, normal outcomes when you spend way more than you make. It's not the costs that are the problem. It's their delusions of grandeur.
 
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Keep in mind, I'm a professional engineer, so my coworkers are not low education or low information folks. Most of them came from upper middle class backgrounds (way beyond what I grew up in), and have been given every opportunity to make good choices, and have enjoyed a lot of privilege in their lives. Their choices have led to these outcomes. They are predictable, natural, normal outcomes when you spend way more than you make. It's not the costs that are the problem. It's their delusions of grandeur.
John Steinbeck said that the poor in America see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
 
The housing market has been at a sustained, inflated state since right before COVID, and buying a new construction from the ground up was the only way we could control costs and get something livable that wouldn't have required tens of thousands more in renovations at a similar price point. We lucked out in many ways... but we also didn't buy when everyone said we should have years earlier, when we could have been underwater.

The rental market has steadily inflated and outpaced real wages even more than the house buying market has. I've seen it with my own eyes, right in front of me. Most people cannot afford any apartment or home on a single income, with as many stripped down expenses as possible.

There are two primary issues at play here, and unfortunately they work synergistically to our detriment.

1. The economy is a house of cards built on everyone buying things they don’t need, often with debt.

We all saw the economy collapse almost literally overnight when the pandemic hit and people stopped buying anything but true necessities.

This is also true whether we’re talking about plebs buying avocado toast or the government buying fighter jets: as much as we talk about “personal responsibility” the Pentagon has failed half a dozen audits in a row, and the US government pays almost $1,000,000,000,000 in interest alone on it’s debt every year.

2. Productivity and GDP growth has increased steadily over the last four decades while wage growth has remained flat, and inflation has thrown gas on that fire over the last five years in particular.

In many metropolitan areas a 2 bedroom 1100 square foot rental now costs in excess of $3000 a month: that means to stay above the poverty line (ie spending 1/3 or less of our income on housing) a single income family needs to make in excess of $100,000 a year.

A single $100,000 income family when I was a child in the 90’s meant being able to afford a mortgage on a nice home, vacations, a college fund for your children, and retirement savings.

It’s not an excess of pleasure spending that has made life significantly less affordable for the majority of people: basic living necessities become significantly less affordable.

A $8 daily latte habit isn’t why so many people are struggling financially…AND if everyone stops buying non-essentials like $8 latte’s the economy collapses.

Rock, meet hard place.

Yes, but I wasn't talking about the lattes and avocado toast cliches. I am talking about structural issues. People can eat all the avocados they want.

If you look at the housing issue, it's a confluence of factors. It's partly consumer demand; people who are in a position to buy houses want "nice" houses, by which they mean big ones with lots of space around them. The way we sell houses, touring around multiple options, there's a psychological effect where you "fall in love" with the "nice" house and then the humble little ranch feels like a let down, so you run yourself into debt you shouldn't so you can be "happy" with your decision. But there's also a provider issue; contractors prefer to build bigger houses because they get a higher profit margin on them. As a result, there's less modest-sized housing on the market in the first place, which gets scooped up quickly, and the limited supply pushes prices up.

High interest rates since COVID have been an attempt to keep inflation at bay, but in housing, it means that if you got a place at a low rate before that (as we did, in 2017), now it's hard to sell because you'd take a bath getting a mortgage at the new, higher rates on whatever you move to. So people don't sell, there's less inventory on the market, smaller supply -> higher prices. People can't afford to buy under these conditions so they rent, now there's higher demand on rentals, and off we go.

There was an interesting article a while back on walkable communities. Basically, they're better in just about every way. City planners always advocate for them. But in America, consumer demand is against them. I once asked a class (for different reasons) what they envisioned when they thought of a "nice neighborhood." The recurring answer that surprised me was, "Space between houses." The article I spoke of pointed out how the American insistence on space between houses leads to suburban sprawl. Not only is it bad for the environment; it also demands more public services. You need to do more road maintenance so people can access all those spread-out houses, water and sewer systems need to stretch longer distances to them, power lines too, and so on. This all costs more. It also means people need to drive everywhere, to get groceries, to get kids to soccer practice, to go to church, doctor's appointments, whatever. Which means they "need" more cars per household and burn more gas (and wear out the roads more, requiring more tax-funded road maintenance...).

I had the good fortune to live in Germany for a year (2004-5). Germany isn't paradise and has its own challenges, but the comparison was revealing. We lived in a suburb of Munich with 14,000 people. We could walk pretty much anywhere in town in 20 minutes and do anything we needed without a car. The kids walked to school. The commuter station for the train into the city was a five-minute walk. We lived the entire year without a car, except for renting a van twice at the beginning and end of the year to pick up a couch from friends and then to return it. I don't know any town of 14,000 in America where we could do that. Everything was built in a compact fashion, green space was public parks around the fringes of town and community gardens rather than everyone having their own yard, yet we never felt like we lacked privacy.

So my point is not that anyone who wanted could do just fine on a minimal income if they turned off Netflix and stopped drinking lattes. This IS a structural problem. But part of the problematic structure is consumer behavior, which comes from unexamined dysfunctional cultural values. We do ourselves a lot of damage.

Feudal System 2.0

Oh, don't! I'm a medieval historian, and there actually was no such thing as a "feudal system," and what modern society is suffering from is not a recurrence of anything medieval.

Late stage capitalism sucks. Greed sucks. IME, much of the issues is caused by that - pure, simple greed. I've had a front row seat to a major, very well-known company almost destroy themselves over greed, and I have had another front row seat to an even bigger company literally destroy itself over greed. It's sad.

Edit: Come to think of it, I've had a front row seat to quite a few companies doing significant harm to themselves, their employees, their customers, etc. over greed.

Stock buybacks, offshoring, "rightsizing," excessive bonuses, stock gants, stock manipulation, insider trading, unfair business practices, lack of ethics, corporations buying up houses, AirBNB/Uber and the trend of ignoring laws, short term profitability (keeping the shareholders happy) over long term strategic thinking, focus on profits over all else, corporate "responsibility" guidelines, price gouging, tax loopholes and "creative accounting, outright fraud ... the list is long.

Too often these issues get blamed on "greedy corporations," but we should never forget that those corporations are actually run by people, and it's greedy people making those decisions.

I often get history students writing essays attributing this or that historical figure's actions to "greed." If I get a wave of them, I ask the class a question; who wants to have more money than they have now? Everyone raises their hand. So, we're all "greedy." That's kind of baked into human behavior, but it doesn't explain why one era is different from another, precisely because it is universal.

But another way to think about it is that we label people "greedy" when their pursuit of "more" seems to step outside of accepted boundaries. Stay within the bounds and they're just admirably "hard working," "ambitious," or "driven." That can help us think more analytically about all this. The question then isn't, whether or not they're "greedy" (since we all are), but what are the boundaries? How has society defined them, marked them, how is it enforcing them (if at all)?

An ethics professor I once had was fond of citing a verse from the Bible, commanding landowners not to harvest their fields right out to the very edges. In other words, they weren't supposed to squeeze their resources for the maximum profit; they were supposed to take enough to prosper, but leave a little around the edge for the poor to glean. There are endless stories like in the movie You've Got Mail, not just cute little schmaltzy bookstores but family-owned bodegas and drugstores and hardware shops (and guitar shops) and things, that got driven out of business not because they weren't profitable, but because they weren't AS profitable as something ELSE, so they got squeezed out by landlords eager to maximize their rent incomes. Or other outside players.

A lot of people have posted about "late-stage capitalism," but I think the problem is not the existence of capitalist institutions and markets, but that we've let them operate in a void, untrammeled by balancing institutions and traditions that would keep them in bounds.