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everything is done wrong anymore

lavaxtris

lavaxtris

Feb 3, 2009
294
89
Ohio
#1
nothing makes sense in the industry anymore. continuously I have found that soundmen just do things completely wrong anymore. they insist on close-micing every guitar amp in the world and pumping a TON of bass drum through the sound system.... like all of them expect every band to be a metal band. it really leaves no room for us trying to bring back the old classic rock sound with lighter music and better tones. I have to ask the sound guys to mic my bass amp EVERY TIME. they always try to DI it. DI makes it AWFUL sounding and takes the tube sound out of my amp. I almost always have to drag out my sansamp when they insist on doing that, as it is about the only thing that will make DI sound good.

what is going wrong with this world?
 
#3
Stone Soup said:
I'm sorry, but I've got news for you. If your bass sounds awful through a DI to the console, your bass might just sound awful in the first place.
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thats absolutely not true at all. Running DI out of a hybrid bass amp is definitely not the same as micing the cab it plays out of. The amp, cab, and bass work as one instrument.... if even one of those things is replaced or removed then the sound changes dramatically and becomes very raw sounding.

The only exception is when I use a sansamp to DI my sound, which provides speaker emulation to cover the loss of the cab. My hybrid amp does not have speaker emulation in its DI output.
 
#5
I agree with not liking a DI, but not every DI sounds bad.
That being said i always want my cab mic'd.
Learned that lesson years back in a studio. I was so unhappy with my bass sound on recordings, so i brought in my rig and mic'd it up and it was night and day difference.
And if i may add also.....
It seems to me that the talent/experience level of house sound men is critically in decline.
So many times i watch a show and see the bassist playing but hear absolutely nothing hes playing.
 
#6
lavaxtris said:
thats absolutely not true at all.
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I've been running direct for many years. I've done it in small clubs and on large stages. It is absolutely true. There are big differences in the quality of direct boxes and in amp DIs, from manufacturer to manufacturer.

I truly understand the issue. I understand wanting to get 'your tone'.
 
#7
lavaxtris said:
thats absolutely not true at all. Running DI out of a hybrid bass amp is definitely not the same as micing the cab it plays out of. The amp, cab, and bass work as one instrument.... if even one of those things is replaced or removed then the sound changes dramatically and becomes very raw sounding.

The only exception is when I use a sansamp to DI my sound, which provides speaker emulation to cover the loss of the cab. My hybrid amp does not have speaker emulation in its DI output.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but I promise you, if DI-ing a bass is a problem, it's not a new problem. In 20 years of gigging, I've never once been miked. Typically, unless you're playing Madison Square Garden, the audience is hearing a blend of your amp and FOH, so you're not really losing your amp's tone, at least not completely.

Most sound engineers I know want the cleanest signal possible from the bass. That means DI pre-eq, not a mic on your cab. If the engineer's any good, he or she will be able to make your bass sound good through FOH.

The issue that comes up is some players (like, for example, you) consider their amp to be a big part of their tone. This is a legitimate concern, and I'm not trying to argue with you. But I'm not sure there was a golden era of bass tone when all bass cabs were miked instead of DI-ed. Not in my lifetime, anyway.
 
#8
Sansamp ftw. I got a separate channel going out through a Tech21 VTbass that emulates an ampeg amp + cab. They can pick up on that signal or indeed mic me up. Straight from the instrument to D.I. is sooooo eighties (you know, the era where everything sucked).
 
#11
what I'm trying to say is that I have a unique 70s Geddy-esque tone based on two key things in my setup. The first being a tubescreamer pedal and the second being a tubey-sounding head+cab or a sansamp DI. The amp I use (a Bugera BVP5500) does not retain its tube-like warmness and pedal handling out through its DI. In fact, the sound is quite raw and unprocessed even when its post-EQ. I don't understand why.

Im not saying that DI is all bad, I've had one of my favorite tones out of just the TS and Sansamp going out DI.... but I think the default way of thinking (for a soundman) would be to mic the amp first, and then check for DI second. or even do a mix of both. They don't DI electric guitar amps for certain reasons. Why don't these reasons apply for bass amps?
 
#12
I've railed against this for years and I gave up. It's a DI world out there and it always will be, and I just decided to make my DI line as mic'ed amp sounding as I could and forget about it. As for soundmen not knowing how to mix, I find some who can and some who can't. Not much you can do.
 
#13
As I see it there is a bigger problem. The FOH mix at bigger halls is all too often a ton of lows and bass drum. At a recent Avett Bros. show in my area I couldn't distinguish any of the vocals. I went over to where the sound board was and watched the sound guys just sitting there. Sound equipment is more sophisticated than ever but I can't say that the sound is better. It still comes down to who's behind the board.
 
#14
lavaxtris - I agree 100% with your rant. You can complain all you want or you can come up with a solution. Provide a good quality mic with a stand along with a GOOD clean DI box. Setup the gear the way you want to and tell them you would like to use both. I have gotten good success from doing that. Explain to the sound guys what you like to do tone wise with a NICE/PLEASANT voice.

Keep in mind - small stages and microphones means your bass mic can pick up more stage noise. Think of a metal band blasting in a small room and a small stage.......sometimes it is better to just use the Tech21 Bass Driver DI or go completely clean. On larger stages, you can win this argument more easily.

I use an Audix D4 mic which is a hypercardioid design - it heavily rejects off-axis sounds on a crowded stage.

It really does come down to the person behind the board. I was at a metal concert where the sound guy was probably 50 years old, full on grey hair, and he made 5 different metal bands sound EXCELLENT. Drums had detail, bass was distinguishable, guitars were audible and not ripping my ears off. Vocals were clear! I could not believe the job this guy did. It was a small room, 200 people max, and he made everyone on stage audible without being overbearing. The big secret? That darn kick drum had very little low end, nothing in the low mids, and was mostly attack. Overall, the low end was kept in check for all instruments - it was not a massive "woof" fest. However, you could still tell the instruments had low end. Big difference here!
 
#16
Passinwind said:
People are depending on random sound men rather than hiring someone who will do it to their satisfaction? ;)
Click to expand...

LOL its like all the typical soundguys went to some school where they improperly teach that more sub-bass EQ is better.

for god's sake man, I was playing the show with a Bon Jovi styled musician and they has the bass drum up like the show was for As I Lay Dying. seriously.... a GOOD soundguy must learn to adjust for the genre. there's no one-size fits all for audio mixing.

I'm highly considering buying a bass-friendly mic and a mic clip that attaches to rackmount handles if this is what its going to come down to.
 
#17
lavaxtris said:
LOL its like all the typical soundguys went to some school where they improperly teach that more sub-bass EQ is better.

for god's sake man, I was playing the show with a Bon Jovi styled musician and they has the bass drum up like the show was for As I Lay Dying. seriously.... a GOOD soundguy must learn to adjust for the genre. there's no one-size fits all for audio mixing.

I'm highly considering buying a bass-friendly mic and a mic clip that attaches to rackmount handles if this is what its going to come down to.
Click to expand...

That's a good idea, IME many clubs do not invest in a bass cab-centric mic.

I wasn't being facetious, by the way. My last few years of doing sound were mostly by-request gigs for bands I'd worked with in the past. I was even known to turn subwoofers completely off in some cases -- and many people thanked me for that! But as you say, context is everything. :cool:
 
#18
Hi.

Must be me being a non-native speaker, but I sure have a hard time understanding the title of this thread.

The op does shed some light to it, and if I understand Your problem correctly, just fire the current sound person and hire a new one.
Problem solved.

OTOH, it also does sound that You actually got more than what you paid for.
Getting at least something for absolutely nothing could be considered as getting on top?


JimmyM said:
I've railed against this for years ...
Click to expand...

You don't say...

:)


JimmyM said:
Not much you can do.
Click to expand...

Sure there is:

Passinwind said:
People are depending on random sound men rather than hiring someone who will do it to their satisfaction? ;)
Click to expand...

^This, times 1000.

In what other profession do the craftsmen and -women let someone probably incompetent to most likely diminish, or even ruin their chance to become more succesful in their chosen field?

Over here, none.

I have had the fortune of working with decent or very good sound men in the past (on both sides of the consoles), but I do have witnessed good bands being ruined by incompetent sound crews. Regardless of the level of success.
OTOH, I've also witnessed great sound men make utterly horrible bands to sound decent. Too bad it usually takes a stadium size PA to drown the chaos on-stage ;).

Do also keep in mind that the FOH guy/gal is only the tip of the proverbial ice berg, every single link in the chain matters, the FOH person just happens to matter the most.
IME/IMO anyway.



Just a thought, and I do know it'll never happen, but since bashing sound engineers hasn't been allowed for quite some time now (thanks mods for that), how about doing something about the whining cheapskates who don't care enough about "their precious sound" to even pay a cent for the work as well.

I do apologise for the rant, the subject at hand just hits too close to home to ignore, that's all.

Regards
Sam
 
#19
I teach a live mixing class, and I can't tell you how many times I have to repeat - over and over - "stop staring at the board and listen to the music." There's so many buttons, knobs, faders, meters, effects options, etc., that they simply stop listening.

The sound man only has one tool of any real value: his ears. I find that getting them to remember that is a constant challenge.
 
#20
Major Softie said:
...
The sound man only has one tool of any real value: his ears. I find that getting them to remember that is a constant challenge.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately some sound men simply don't have good ears. Probably ruined by their own too bass heavy and too loud mixing over the years ...

Of course we shouldn't generalize, there are both good and bad. I think it's mainly in smaller places they tend to be really bad. As to bringing in your own guy that some have suggested; that's both costly and I don't think all places would be happy to let some other person than their own guy touch the PA.

Regardless of mic vs DI etc, what I like to do is try to make the sound guy a friend; introduce yourself as the bass player, ask if you can help with the setup, talk briefly about how you want your bass to sound, thank him after the gig. I think it helps with the attention he will give your sound. Be an a$$ and presume he will suck and your sound will guaranteed suffer.
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