Excessive eq required for bass recording? & eq bass before amp sim?

[Wurli567]

I have to admit I’ve struggled to record a nice bass that is as ‘good’ as stems I’ve heard from records.
Appreciate there are many many factors and considerations.
I’m a piano player really but want to record bass for some songwriting.
I’ve an 80s american p bass - a nice instrument set up well now so no excuses I suppose.
Essentially it sounds to me really big and fat but not necessarily in a great way when raw.
Di requires quite a lot of eq and using amp sims ie UAD just sound terrible and bloated beyond belief to me thus far…
One thing that’s helped of late is using an empress paraeq deluxe pedal at the start of the chain to mostly reduce (to my ears) excessive low mids/mids and boost a little using the high shelf that runs up from 1khz.
This in terms seems to allow my analogue compressor to react better as I like to track with a bit of dynamic control going in.
I’ve also got an analogue rack eq (that has very minimal eq control points) but I use that to reduce everything above 8khz as a shelf to cut down on some noise from the chain.
I roll off a bit of tone on the bass too as there’s a point at about 70% that seems to help with the settings and cuts string noise etc with the di.
It seems quite a lot of eq but maybe that’s just the way it is as normal…?!

My other questions relate to bass amp capture (not having much experience with bass recording) -
Do real bass amps and the physical speakers kinda iron out the ‘bloated’ starting point of raw pickups? 180-300hz seems a real congested and muddy area when raw to me.
As said, the virtual bass amps with a raw signal to me sound unusable so far.
I can’t realistically record real bass amps.
I had this idea of combining di and amp (appreciating it would present challenges of ie phase) but this seems a long way off now.
Maybe in a virtual world it’s more necessary to eq the bass before it hits the sims in software?
Maybe I’ll just stick to using a di…

Many thanks for any thoughts/advise

 

[Killing Floor]

The soft technology used to simulate the mechanical stresses that create the sounds you like are improving every day. Just like piano patches on a synth are closer to a piano than they were a decade ago. Just use a DI for now. That’s probably going to do a better job capturing your bass.

 

[seamonkey]

I’m a piano player

If you got good keyboard chops, You might want to look into a few of the many virtual instruments that cater to Keyboard players.

For example:
IK Multimedia MODO Bass
Wave's Bass Fingers
Several of the Kontakt libs like Session Bassist

Or use a synth bass. Several well known baselines were played by synths or samplers.

 

[silky smoove]

Sounds to me like the bass you’re using might not be the right choice for the session. If you have no other basses to try then don’t sweat copious amounts of post processing. In the end the only thing that matters is what comes out of the speakers. How you got there is only relevant to you.

 

[HP Hovercraft]

I'd probably go direct and sculpt the sound in plug-ins.

 

[Aloe]

so, your P bass has very pronounced low mids? that's how a P bass sounds, so nothing strange here. a different bass, strings or playing technique can sound differently, but frankly everything is as expected here.

up to this point, it's not a lot of EQ, maybe it's just this bass sounds differently to how you'd like it to. or maybe it's just a dark DI. it's hard to tell without you trying the bass in some amp.

if you'll show us a sample of your recordings, we might tell you if it sounds like a raw P-bass or not.

also please note that the bass, occupying 100-300 Hz, is not necessarily a bad thing. it might sound 'muddy' alone, but fit the mix good. it all ends up with what sound do you want in the mix.

 

[Stylee Mousse]

Sounds like you have a few things going on. I’d take a hard look at technique. Most less experienced bass players focus a lot oh “hitting the notes” and , yes, you do have to start notes but you also need to pay attention to how you cut them off and mute anything and everything you are not playing. a very wise local session pro told me once “play everything staccato, all the time” which is a slight exaggeration but also good advice.

this may offend but I’m pretty sure I could play that bass with no eq and get it to speak clearly, as I do almost every day in my studio.

I could be wrong of course! Maybe it’s all about the instrument. I’m not a huge pbass guy.

 

[winegamd]

Can you post a sample of the raw DI bass track? That might help solving the issue.

What strings are you using?

Have you tried different plucking positions and strength (softly over the last fret or closer to the bridge)?

The P-bass is the number one preferred bass by most recording engineers and probably the most recorded bass type.

Usually that fat waveform through the low mids is what is wanted in a mix because it sits above the kick while staying below the guitars and vocals. However, if you are playing a lot of left hand on the piano, it can conflict with where a P usually sits.

 

[MonetBass]

Just use a DI for now. That’s probably going to do a better job capturing your bass.

This.

I'd probably go direct and sculpt the sound in plug-ins.

And this. I've gotten the best bass sound recording by going directly into my recording interface and processing the signal in the DAW, usually some EQ and a little compression.

 

[winegamd]

If you have a plug-in with multi-band compression you could set a band in the low mids where you are normally cutting with eq.

 

[And I]

how does it sound in the mix? liking how it sounds when solo'd is not really important. you might get it to sound great on its own and then find it won't work in the mix. or you may get it sounding great in the mix, and then not like it when solo'd (this second scenario is quite common). how you EQ the bass depends on how it fits into your mix...

 

[lermgalieu]

Tell us your signal chain at entry to interface. In other words what do you mean by "DI"? Are you plugging the instrument into effects, then directly into interface? Or is there another DI pedal/unit involved? If so what is it? What recording interface? In order to get the ideal DI tone, a lot relies on proper impedance and levels going to your interface.

You should be able to get a great DI tone with no mic, or at least a tone that you can turn into a great tone for the music.

 

[HP Hovercraft]

This.

And this. I've gotten the best bass sound recording by going directly into my recording interface and processing the signal in the DAW, usually some EQ and a little compression.

Yep, every time a make a channel for bass, I'll add an EQ and a compressor. And almost always a Pultec.

 

[Wisebass]

Hi Wurli

I’m a piano player really but want to record bass for some songwriting.

How good are you at playing bass?

Essentially it sounds to me really big and fat but not necessarily in a great way when raw.

Have you tried to move your right hand closer to the bridge to get closer to your sound goal?

2 inches further back can make a big difference!

empress paraeq deluxe pedal

analogue compressor

analogue rack eq

using amp sims ie UAD

That's a whole bunch of stuff!

It looks like you're lost in all that gear!

And that you are looking for solutions to problems, that can be solved without iusing all that stuff

At least there's a good chance that you won't need all of it!


Here is my aproach to recording:

1) Fix a sound goal: I want to sound like the bass on this or that recording

2) Find out how it was done! (ask on TB, enough crazy folks actually know that kind of stuff! )

2a) Which playing technique (finger, plec, right hand position)

2b) Strings, was a mute used?

2c) try all that and get as close as possible

3) always remember: a bass often sounds horrible when isolated, thats's why

4) play the drum tracks, guitars and keys first and put the bass on top

5) don't worry too much about string noise or plucking sounds see 3) most of them will get lost in the mix

6) work on the details last (e.g. compression) when your bass track is recorded!

Do real bass amps and the physical speakers kinda iron out the ‘bloated’ starting point of raw pickups?

A bass amp makes the sound easier to digest!

here is a good recent thread about that topic:

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/are-any-amps-truly-transparent-and-how-could-you-tell.1636465/

Maybe in a virtual world it’s more necessary to eq the bass before it hits the sims in software?

Before virtual was even a thing most basses were recorded without using real amps or real cabs.

A lot of folks use sims because they exist and everybody thinks they are the best thing since sliced tort.

But that doesn't mean they are always the right aproach!


Just start with 1) How do you want to sound?


greetings

wise(b)ass

 

[DavidEdenAria]

You might take a look at pickup height being too close and of course strings are a major factor...lots of good advice here otherwise.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

I suspect you may be overthinking this and possibly overprocessing your tone. A passive P-bass into a good quality, clean DI box should provide a rock solid bass tone. It shouldn't need much eq at all, unless you're aiming for a VERY specific and totally different kinda tone. P-basses do have a rather distinct tone but it's a tone that nearly always works, especially in the context of a mix.

Do you have a good DI box? The DI inputs on audio interfaces are usually rather poor.

Are your strings very old? Maybe a fresh set of strings could help?

Is the bass set up properly? Have you checked the pickup height?

 

[Wurli567]

The sounds I am referencing ie John Deacon from Queen (p bass, flats, di and amp) would have been recorded with expensive analogue gear and tape etc.
Waveforms are clearly dynamically controlled and tonally very well matched with other instruments.
Listening/comparing/analysing di track in particular even doing some match eq for help playing (as best I can) the same notes at the same time.
This affords some clues for sure in difference.

Totally appreciate it’s as much to do with what else is going on in the mix and other instruments.
I happen to have some analogue gear.
As mentioned, I’ve found better results using this but with eq shaping at the start (empress paraeq deluxe).
Don’t have another analogue eq with much control.
1176 clone seems to work better too with eq before.
Find it creatively better to have an ‘improved’ signal going in to monitor via UAD console rather than trying to monitor through logic with plugins considering latency considerations etc.
Have tried recording raw di and using plugins and agree can get workable results but like the workflow mentioned.
Guess it’s an impossible one to say given all the variables.
Guess I was just interested in others experiences/thoughts given the amount of work needed generically to a raw bass di that to me sounds very dull and bloated.
Currently flipping between UAD Apollo high z input and radial j48 into a neve 1073 pre my mate has lent me.

 

[JKos]

@Wurli567 ,
You didn’t answer the questions about what strings you are using, playing style, and right hand position. As mentioned above, those make a big difference.

 

[Wurli567]

Got a couple of ideas on the go one where I think fingered plying will work better and currently have flats on since the compare process.
Another one seems better with a pick with the round wounds but not sure still.
Appreciate different styles and techniques require different treatment.
Tried different positions and strength
Amazing how many tones can be achieved with the p bass.
Just wondered how others deal with the raw flat tone.
Getting better results now for sure and working di but going back in part to the start of my question I was just surprised how ‘bad’ in particular the raw sound into a virtual software bass amp was…?!?

 

[StayLow]

John Deacon? That’s as standard, classic P bass as it gets. In part thanks to Deacon himself setting the bar.

Little if any EQ. Same as all good recorded sounds, really. No fancy gear required.

Roll off tone a bit if there’s brightness from the bass, strings, too much P bass honk, or poor technique - proper EQ technique is always cutting rather than boosting - and compression either from the channel strip and probably a bit of outboard gear. Also a great right hand technique.

You don’t even necessarily need a P bass… that’s how much you’re overthinking it, or under-thinking the things that actually matter.

Good luck, have fun and learn lots!