Double Bass Existential Crisis

[Thumpie]

One more to throw into the mix, if you're interested: I'll be selling a nice, (relatively) inexpensive carved bass in just a few weeks, and I live right near you (Chapel Hill). If not, Bob's shop is great and I'm sure he can help you get what you need.

I'd love to hear about the bass. If such discussion is not allowed on this forum, please send me a private message!

 

[Thumpie]

Good advice by Arnold! I have been playing DB 1 year, learning how to bow has been very important to my growth - intonation, time keeping, feel, ear training. I think the bow is very versatile as a learning tool and for musical expression. I recently added arco to my jazz studies. I walk changes, solo and play melodies using the bow, eventually I will include these exercises into my ensemble playing. Whatever bass you get think out of the box with bowing, you will see the music in a whole new light. Personally I can't wait to be able to play Irish fiddle tunes as well as classical etudes, it's all good

I've been practicing arco since the beginning (2001?) and I try to add it into performances whenever it works. But I think laminated basses have taken me as far as I can go. It's just frustrating. When auditioning the carved/hybrid basses, I could do things effortlessly that are impossible on the Kay...

 

[bejoyous]

You could sell the Kay for a good price and upgrade to a New Standard or Upton hybrid or fully carved for both arco and pizz.

Also, what changes did you want to make to your Kay to make it more bowable?

 

[transition]

I tend to get into musical situations that require the robustness of a plywood bass (example: on a recent gig I had to carry the Kay around the club while playing and haul it up on tables in the middle of songs, etc. Don't ask.) ...After all I've been through with her, I sort of feel like my Kay is indestructible...

I've been practicing arco since the beginning (2001?) and I try to add it into performances whenever it works. But I think laminated basses have taken me as far as I can go. It's just frustrating. When auditioning the carved/hybrid basses, I could do things effortlessly that are impossible on the Kay...

I think you're answering your own question here.
- you want a ply bass you can beat on for gigging
- you want a carved bass to go to the next level with arco

Seems like lots of people have two basses for these very reasons: a ply for rough-n-tumble use, and a carved for everything else.

 

[Thumpie]

You could sell the Kay for a good price and upgrade to a New Standard or Upton hybrid or fully carved for both arco and pizz.

Also, what changes did you want to make to your Kay to make it more bowable?

Ebony fingerboard; carbon fiber rod; new bridge for better arch.

 

[Thumpie]

I think you're answering your own question here.
- you want a ply bass you can beat on for gigging
- you want a carved bass to go to the next level with arco

Seems like lots of people have two basses for these very reasons: a ply for rough-n-tumble use, and a carved for everything else.

I think I have answered my own questions but I haven't quite convinced myself yet.

I'm sort of finding that the internet can be at least marginally better than talking to yourself--especially on this excellent site! Thanks for all the ideas everyone!

 

[Matt Ides]

One more option it to find the hybrid/carved bass that meets all your needs and what you are hearing pizz/arco. With the right set-up and strings you can achieve both. Look at all the jazz/folk bassists that play mostly pizz on fine carved instruments. I have always had laminate basses until recently, but would be hard pressed now to go back to a laminate over the carved bass. I am in a similar boat. practicing at home is 100% arco, playing out is about 90% pizz/ 10% arco.

 

[Thumpie]

One more option it to find the hybrid/carved bass that meets all your needs and what you are hearing pizz/arco. With the right set-up and strings you can achieve both. Look at all the jazz/folk bassists that play mostly pizz on fine carved instruments. I have always had laminate basses until recently, but would be hard pressed now to go back to a laminate over the carved bass. I am in a similar boat. practicing at home is 100% arco, playing out is about 90% pizz/ 10% arco.

What kind of strings are you using? I'm heavily invested in the "Spiro growl."

 

[Thumpie]

Stick money in a drawer and wait. Great deals are out there, and there's a chance that you can get into an arco-friendly carved bass for a price you don't mind spending and which is proportional to the amount of time you expect to spend playing it. I got a pre-WW2 German gamba for $800 this summer. Stuff happens.

In my area, incredible deals seem few and far between. (I think this has to do with the area's high level of education, the relative health of the local economy, and the high per-capita incidence of musicians--not to mention the sudden interest in "roots" music which seems to be the hip thing here right now.)

Anyway, I'd rather spend my time practicing with the bow rather than chasing down a once-in-a-lifetime deal.

 

[Matt Ides]

What kind of strings are you using? I'm heavily invested in the "Spiro growl."

I currently have Oliv G and Evah weichs EAD on a 2003 Snow bass. These have been working out great. Also, don't forget spiros are good arco strings just as well. I feel the evahs have some of the growl when you need it, but sing under the bow. I was worried when I upgraded from a nice thumpy epiphone (horrible arco and wolfy) that this bass wasn't going to cut mustard. I was really wrong and am quite happy.

They have a nice thumpy bottom which I usually associate with the old laminate basses. I can send you some mp3s if you want.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

In my area, incredible deals seem few and far between. (I think this has to do with the area's high level of education, the relative health of the local economy, and the high per-capita incidence of musicians--not to mention the sudden interest in "roots" music which seems to be the hip thing here right now.)

Anyway, I'd rather spend my time practicing with the bow rather than chasing down a once-in-a-lifetime deal.

I'm in upstate NY and tripped over the listing while bored at work. Just keep your eyes open. But definitely keep up with your arco work. I've been slacking.

 

[Thumpie]

I currently have Oliv G and Evah weichs EAD on a 2003 Snow bass. These have been working out great. Also, don't forget spiros are good arco strings just as well. I feel the evahs have some of the growl when you need it, but sing under the bow. I was worried when I upgraded from a nice thumpy epiphone (horrible arco and wolfy) that this bass wasn't going to cut mustard. I was really wrong and am quite happy.

They have a nice thumpy bottom which I usually associate with the old laminate basses. I can send you some mp3s if you want.

My Kay is a little wolfy too. It's on the A, and is most noticeable on the G string.

Thanks for the details; I'll keep this set-up in mind, but I don't think I'll need the recordings. I'll probably need to play any strings to really get an idea if I'll like them...

 

[Thumpie]

I'm in upstate NY and tripped over the listing while bored at work. Just keep your eyes open. But definitely keep up with your arco work. I've been slacking.

This is exactly what I do at work. This and posting on this site.

 

[tstone]

I would never have this problem, because I don't have room for two basses. So my solution to your dilemma is that you should move to a smaller house.

 

[coldtrain]

I think you'll like the new bass so much that it will become your main instrument for pizz and arco. The kay will stand in the corner...

This is exactly what has happened in my case. I bought a carved Juzek as I felt I was always fighting the Kay when practicing my arco studies -- and once I got the carved bass I discovered I was right. The Juzek bows wonderfully and sounds great and best of all I don't feel like it's fighting me AND the bow like my Kay does.

If you want to keep the resale value on the Kay, don't touch it, buy a carved bass and bow away. Otherwise, mod the Kay neck the way you want. However, I don't believe the Kay will ever give you the acoustic joy from the bow like a carved instrument will. Running through an amp however is anybody's guess.

Also keep in mind that if you buy a carved instrument for arco, the string lengths might be different and most likely the neck heel shape is going to be different than the Kay which will affect your sense of fingerboard geography in (Rabbath) 3rd position. I haven't found a bass with the same neck heel position/shape as my Kay (1945 S-51.) So if you plan on practicing one at home and the other on gigs you'll have to be ready to compensate to ensure your intonation is on.

The Juzek is my main instrument right now, strung with Spiro Mittels, with a Jargar medium on the G. Arco, slap, pizz. It does it all, acoustic and amplified. And it's great having two basses! Just like having two pickup trucks.

Hope that helps.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

My solution, much to some TB members' annoyance (who may feel I'm setting a bad example), is simply not to bow.

What is this thing called arco?

I've pretty much ditched the stick o' pain just to keep the gf happy and focused on other areas (transcriptions, slap, etc).

My opinion: buck up, dump the Kay and buy a nice hybrid.

 

[Thumpie]

I would never have this problem, because I don't have room for two basses. So my solution to your dilemma is that you should move to a smaller house.

My place is already pretty small. I guess a solution could be to get some furniture. Or start filling up my house with consumer goods. I'm such a poor consumer. I must hate America.

 

[Thumpie]

Also keep in mind that if you buy a carved instrument for arco, the string lengths might be different and most likely the neck heel shape is going to be different than the Kay which will affect your sense of fingerboard geography in (Rabbath) 3rd position. I haven't found a bass with the same neck heel position/shape as my Kay (1945 S-51.) So if you plan on practicing one at home and the other on gigs you'll have to be ready to compensate to ensure your intonation is on.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. And if I'm going to get a single carved or hybrid bass, it's going to need some character like my Kay has.

I sort of like the idea of keeping an old Kay and having a new carved Shen--sort of the best of both extremes. But if I could find a nice older bass that would serve both purposes with a set of strings that offered an acceptable compromise, I'd be willing to pay the money to avoid the problems you listed.

Thus is the conundrum that keeps me up at night.

 

[Thumpie]

However, I don't believe the Kay will ever give you the acoustic joy from the bow like a carved instrument will. Running through an amp however is anybody's guess.

I've given up making my amplified sound a priority. I'm most concerned about the acoustic sound of the instrument. With most bands I practice without the amp, and even occasionally do low-volume un-amped shows or, more often, shows with a mic only.

I sort of think that if a show requires a pick-up it's going sound horrible anyway because the venue or/and sound tech-sucks, and I'm not going to waste the energy to worry about the loss of nuance. It's sort of like the 12-step "serenity" credo. I just let it go.

The most important thing is how the bass sounds to me and my band-mates when we practice without electricity--or when it's recorded with a good mic...

 

[Heifetzbass]

Hey Thumpie,

I know Bob and his shop, and this is in no way a disrespecting of him...

I would suggest taking the Kay to James Condino in Asheville. He works on a lot of old Kays and knows what they can do. I have played on some suped-up Kays that bowed really nicely. I am not saying Bob can't do the work, but he also has a showroom full of basses that he is trying to sell. Not in any way a slam, but I would really consider what Arnold is saying.

If James has the same opinion as Bob on your bass, then I would go get another bass to bow on. If the work is good, your Kay will improve in sound with all of those improvements made to set-up, whether you are bowing it or not. Stiffening the neck, increasing bridge height, and an ebony board will pull way more sound out of your current bass.

My .02,
Brian