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Double Bass Existential Crisis

#41
Heifetzbass said:
Hey Thumpie,

I know Bob and his shop, and this is in no way a disrespecting of him...

I would suggest taking the Kay to James Condino in Asheville. He works on a lot of old Kays and knows what they can do. I have played on some suped-up Kays that bowed really nicely. I am not saying Bob can't do the work, but he also has a showroom full of basses that he is trying to sell. Not in any way a slam, but I would really consider what Arnold is saying.

If James has the same opinion as Bob on your bass, then I would go get another bass to bow on. If the work is good, your Kay will improve in sound with all of those improvements made to set-up, whether you are bowing it or not. Stiffening the neck, increasing bridge height, and an ebony board will pull way more sound out of your current bass.

My .02,
Brian
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Thanks for the perspective. Bob said he was willing to do the work, and if I understand where he was coming from, he just meant he didn't think it was such a good idea to change a classic instrument that is perfect for jazz or Bluegrass unless I really loved it. Maybe someone like Molly Kay would have similar reservations.

He also said he'd be willing to trade or sale it on consignment if I decided to get rid of it. I really doesn't feel like he was trying to push me towards any particular purchase. We had frank discussions about the pros and cons of each bass that caught my ear. I get the idea that Bob makes most of his money from repairs, and doesn't really need to concern himself with sales of instruments less than $10k.

But thanks for the idea. I'll consider this approach! It's helpful to hear about Condino! If he wasn't so far away I'd already be in his shop bothering him with my notebook full of questions...
 
#42
Thumpie said:
This is exactly what I'm worried about. And if I'm going to get a single carved or hybrid bass, it's going to need some character like my Kay has.

I sort of like the idea of keeping an old Kay and having a new carved Shen--sort of the best of both extremes. But if I could find a nice older bass that would serve both purposes with a set of strings that offered an acceptable compromise, I'd be willing to pay the money to avoid the problems you listed.
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Are you concerned about a new Shen because the tone wouldn't be mature to the point where it would sound as good for pizzicato as your Kay?

But I think laminated basses have taken me as far as I can go. It's just frustrating. When auditioning the carved/hybrid basses, I could do things effortlessly that are impossible on the Kay...
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and

I'm most concerned about the acoustic sound of the instrument.
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Sounds like you need a carved instrument, no matter what happens with the Kay. But I'd be willing to bet that if you buy a carved bass that you like it will become your main bass shortly.
 
#43
One of the best and first lessons I learned about playing bass was to not become emotionally attached to a bass.

Basses come and go, and eventually you'll outgrow one. It sounds like, and it seems like, you're telling us that you've outgrown your Kay and that you're scared to get rid of it.

Try something, go back to Ben's, and ask to take a bass on a 1 - 2 week trial. Leave your Kay at his store. After two weeks, tell us whether or not you really want to keep that Kay.
 
#44
coldtrain said:
Are you concerned about a new Shen because the tone wouldn't be mature to the point where it would sound as good for pizzicato as your Kay?
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No. I'm more concerned about finding duel-use strings if I'm only going to have one bass. That, along with the need for plywood robustness, is the main downside to "the one" bass solution. And also finding "the one" with the "cool-ness" factor of the Kay. It doesn't need to be a Kay, but "the one" needs to have its own character.
 
#46
My bass is a German shop ply. I started taking arco lessons because of some gigs I had and then started thinking I needed an carved or hybred bass to sound good. Surprise. My teacher, a retired professional bassist, said my bass sounded fine. A good bow and some lessons and it sounds even better. The difference made by various bows was amazing. Don't sell the Kay short. Do be sure you have a decent bow and that the strings will do for both arco and pizz. I have hybrids on mine.
 
#48
Herbie 80's said:
One of the best and first lessons I learned about playing bass was to not become emotionally attached to a bass.

Basses come and go, and eventually you'll outgrow one. It sounds like, and it seems like, you're telling us that you've outgrown your Kay and that you're scared to get rid of it.

Try something, go back to Ben's, and ask to take a bass on a 1 - 2 week trial. Leave your Kay at his store. After two weeks, tell us whether or not you really want to keep that Kay.
Click to expand...

Love it! The psychoanalysis is great! I've also learned not to become emotionally attached to women!

Actually, this is pretty good advice, but maybe what I should do is take the carved bass w/Belacantos for a week, swop strings with the Kay and see how the Kay bows. Then I'd know exactly how good it could be for arco, which would be very valuable information. During the same week, I could take the carved bass on gigs and see if I really did fall in love with it for pizz...
 
#51
Thumpie said:
Thanks for the perspective. Bob said he was willing to do the work, and if I understand where he was coming from, he just meant he didn't think it was such a good idea to change a classic instrument that is perfect for jazz or Bluegrass unless I really loved it. Maybe someone like Molly Kay would have similar reservations.

He also said he'd be willing to trade or sale it on consignment if I decided to get rid of it. I really doesn't feel like he was trying to push me towards any particular purchase. We had frank discussions about the pros and cons of each bass that caught my ear. I get the idea that Bob makes most of his money from repairs, and doesn't really need to concern himself with sales of instruments less than $10k.

But thanks for the idea. I'll consider this approach! It's helpful to hear about Condino! If he wasn't so far away I'd already be in his shop bothering him with my notebook full of questions...
Click to expand...

Like I said, I didn't mean it as a slam towards Bob at all, he is a good guy and will treat you well. I would just get a second opinion.

It has been my experience, that Kays have weak necks, inferior fingerboards, and poor neck projection. Bowed or otherwise. I think a "classic" instrument, whether Kay or a vintage carved instrument, like the one I play can always benefit from improvements and set-up tweaks.

Good luck on your hunt. I played about 100 basses this summer to figure out the route I want to go. I drove over 2000 miles, and it was well worth it. It was worth visiting with Ken Smith, Arnold Schnitzer, and some of the other well known luthiers in the north east.

Best,
Brian
 
#52
Heifetzbass said:
Like I said, I didn't mean it as a slam towards Bob at all, he is a good guy and will treat you well. I would just get a second opinion.

It has been my experience, that Kays have weak necks, inferior fingerboards, and poor neck projection. Bowed or otherwise. I think a "classic" instrument, whether Kay or a vintage carved instrument, like the one I play can always benefit from improvements and set-up tweaks.

Good luck on your hunt. I played about 100 basses this summer to figure out the route I want to go. I drove over 2000 miles, and it was well worth it. It was worth visiting with Ken Smith, Arnold Schnitzer, and some of the other well known luthiers in the north east.

Best,
Brian
Click to expand...

Duly noted. I agree with everything you've said. The factors playing against upgrading the Kay are that it has a beautifully worn rosewood fingerboard that still has enough thickness for one more light re-dressing when needed. Bob said it is rare to see a mid-40s Kay in such good condition. Given the fact that I don't know if the Kay will dramatically improve for arco with upgrades (I kind of doubt it), it seems unethical for environmental and historical reasons to damage the aesthetics of the bass and dampen its mojo (the worn fingerboard was one of the things that really enticed me to buy the bass--ironically, the other thing was how much better it bowed than my other cheaper bass).

If I was sure the Kay could be made into a great arco bass, I'd do these upgrades in a minute, and I'd deal with the wolf tone, and "duel-use" strings issue. But since there is serious doubt--and these "ethical" concerns--it sort of seems like a waste of time and money to keep trying to make an orange into a apple.

Also, another note: I think Bob knows Kays well. When I visited him he had a couple for sale and a couple more in his shop being currently repaired. But it is possible that his judgement is a little compromised by the memories of the Kay that he owned decades ago. I seemed to detect a little bit of nostalgia in his voice when he spoke about it...
 
#53
Here's where I'm at now. For the moment I'll just put financial considerations aside:


Option One: Keep the Kay for pizz./performances and get a 2nd carved bass for arco practice

Pros: I would have a bass that was a joy to play arco on, and I would practice more arco and devolp as a player; I'd have a robust, very "cool" ply bass for gigs.

Cons: Switching between the two could make for some embarrassing moments during performance; this option could lead to Option 3.


Option Two: Upgrade the Kay

Pros: I wouldn't be switching instruments all the time, so performances would perhaps be better; I wouldn't have to stress about caring for a carved/hybrid instrument.

Cons: Near-impossibility of finding "duel-use" strings; near-impossibility of making a ply bass sound as good as a carved instrument; the "ethical" (environmental and historical) concerns about changing the aesthetics of the bass.



Option Three: Seek a carved (or hybrid) instrument for all my needs and abandon the Kay

Pros: I wouldn't be switching instruments all the time, so performances would perhaps be better.

Cons: "Duel-use" strings/set-up issues; relative fragility of instrument; difficulty of finding a bass with "character."



Notice that Option One has both the strongest pros and cons...
 
#54
Thumpie said:
Duly noted. I agree with everything you've said. The factors playing against upgrading the Kay are that it has a beautifully worn rosewood fingerboard that still has enough thickness for one more light re-dressing when needed. Bob said it is rare to see a mid-40s Kay in such good condition. Given the fact that I don't know if the Kay will dramatically improve for arco with upgrades (I kind of doubt it), it seems unethical for environmental and historical reasons to damage the aesthetics of the bass and dampen its mojo (the worn fingerboard was one of the things that really enticed me to buy the bass--ironically, the other thing was how much better it bowed than my other cheaper bass).

If I was sure the Kay could be made into a great arco bass, I'd do these upgrades in a minute, and I'd deal with the wolf tone, and "duel-use" strings issue. But since there is serious doubt--and these "ethical" concerns--it sort of seems like a waste of time and money to keep trying to make an orange into a apple.

Also, another note: I think Bob knows Kays well. When I visited him he had a couple for sale and a couple more in his shop being currently repaired. But it is possible that his judgement is a little compromised by the memories of the Kay that he owned decades ago. I seemed to detect a little bit of nostalgia in his voice when he spoke about it...
Click to expand...

I get the unwillingness to change the board, etc... due to the nostalgia on Bob and your part. I think the point I am trying to make, but obviously not very clearly, is that your pizz playing will be louder and stronger with a new ebony board, higher bridge, and stiffer neck. Regardless of the arco playing, I think you will find the bass has improved playability. I don't think this will be money ill spent. If it improves the arco playing as well, then bonus.

I think Bob knows Kay basses, but Arnold is one of the best luthiers in the country. I think if I was considering surgery, I would want a second opinion. I wouldn't go to only one doctor to figure out if I needed the surgery.

Best,
Brian
 
#55
I have been in a similar situation in the past.

That said, I wanted the carved bass enough to get it. Now I have both. I practice on the carved and use it on gigs where/when appropriate. I also have the old Kay, which I love a little less, but is still an original old classic ply bass. I use it on gigs where/when appropriate. I say option 1 is the way to go.

Best!
 
#56
My route was a little different. I had an American Standard that got used for everything...blues, pit, orchestra. I sold it and bought a used carved instrument at a good price after spending months searching for a hybrid. But I didn't feel good using the carved for blues gigs or outdoors. Eventually, I found an Epiphone that's good for amplified use and I worry about it less. It has Evah weichs and low action, while the carved bass has Helicore orchestra strings and a bit higher action. I've been lucky to find the right instruments at the right prices and am fortunate to have the space for both, too.
 
#57
I have a 1948 Kay that I used to use for jazz only for the last 30 years and then I started playing in a couple of community orchestras. Bought Evahs for the Kay and that really helped. Now I have another fully carved bass and it is soooooo much better for orchestral playing and practising. I have lent my Kay to a highschool student so she can practise at home. Both are serving purposes well. I will probably sell the Kay eventually. Evahs however are the best compromise strings that I have come across.
 
#59
Just for what it's worth, one of my colleagues in one of the community orchestra's I play in has a "reworked" Kay, as Arnold suggests. It more than holds its own with some pretty good carved basses and I know he uses it on all his jazz and club gigs.

Of course, a lot depends on the basic health etc of the specific instrument.

Louis
 
#60
Heifetzbass said:
I get the unwillingness to change the board, etc... due to the nostalgia on Bob and your part. I think the point I am trying to make, but obviously not very clearly, is that your pizz playing will be louder and stronger with a new ebony board, higher bridge, and stiffer neck. Regardless of the arco playing, I think you will find the bass has improved playability. I don't think this will be money ill spent. If it improves the arco playing as well, then bonus.

I think Bob knows Kay basses, but Arnold is one of the best luthiers in the country. I think if I was considering surgery, I would want a second opinion. I wouldn't go to only one doctor to figure out if I needed the surgery.

Best,
Brian
Click to expand...

Oh, I completely agree with everything you've said here, but the point of this line of reasoning is to address my arco needs, and I remain doubtful that the Kay could ever compete with the basses I auditioned. But to be fair, I'd need to load her up with Belacantos and address her wolf tone.

Now this line of thought, and all the anecdotes about how good Kays can be for arco has led to the wackiest option of all:


Option Four: Buy a 2nd Kay for Arco

Pros: Problem with switching would be minimized due to similarity of instruments; no "duel-use" strings/set-up issues; no carved tops to care for.

Cons: Can a Kay really be a joy to bow? Would the instruments really be similar enough to make switching effortless?
 

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