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Expensive vs cheap pickups?

Since my previous post over a year ago I've had a bit of time playing around with some cheap Aliexpress pickups and parts on a cheap bass I bought exclusively to use as a test bed for my less than stellar tinkering skills.

The pickup I got was an MM style and only cost me $25 NZd (around $15 USd) delivered to me in New Zealand.
To say that it is better than the price would indicate is an understatement. I've gotten more compliments on the sound of this bass than any other..... which is actually a bit sad considering it really is a mutt that has no reason being as good as it is. :laugh:

The full parts review thread is here.
 
Depends. I had a Fender p that had EMG active eq p/u, then swapped to quarter pounders, still no good, sold it. My new fender p will stay stock.
Also, there can’t be that much difference. Unless they are hand wound, # of turns, wound a particular direction. High grade magnets, Then there will be a difference. My experience is that anything below $100 are all similar. Different magnet types make a big difference, wiring series/parallel does also.

Hand winding is scatter winding (which lowers the interwinding capacitance a bit), without any control of the results. You can program some automatic winders to scatter wind, and you get what you want every time, with good control. Hand winding is not an advantage.

Wiring series vs parallel changes the inductance of a pickup by a factor of 4 (and changes the interwinding capacitance in the opposite direction by a factor of 4). You can get the same sonic result by wiring the pickup in parallel, and adding capacitive loading to dial in the "series" sound, without the annoying volume difference to deal with. Also, if you don't find either sound to be exactly what you want, you can fine tune them via the value(s) of capacitor you choose. Doing that also puts most of the load capacity before the volume control, which means your volume control will act more like a volume control - the tone will change far less when you turn the volume down.
 
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I’ve tried a couple basses in the store that were strangely “muffled” sounding. Which I thought was probably the pickup was bad somehow. Just not a lot of volume or treble. Not sure if that is really a mandatory pickup swap out situation!
 
^^ Buy an inexpensive soldering iron and a couple of alligator clip leads. Desolder the PU from everything and use the clip leads to connect it to a lead temporarily/ Sounds good? Not the PU. Still sounds bad? Investigate from there.

My last set of a dozen clip leads was about $5 posted and they're handy for lots of small electronics tasks and fault finding.
 
Lot of positive feedback on Dimarzio Area J. So, i got a set while i check out with Model J bridge pickup.

Install it on my lovely cheap Bacchus J with Cobalt flat 2814 loaded , play about 4 hours then put back the Cort VTB-ST hum cancelling J set.

The Area J sound brighter meanwhile lacking some meaty upper mid voice compare to VTB-ST.

Dont get me wrong, she sound nice and sure i will liking with it if there are no VTB-ST pup around. I do believe Area J will great match with warmth tone roundwound bass string like DR Sunbeam/ Daddario NYXL / Dunlop SBN / Sadowsky Blue Nickel.

This is USD 150 Area J vs USD 60 VTB-ST different . And you unable purchase the VTB-ST around. She came as stock pickup set for previous Pre-2020 Cort GB74JJ/75JJ and current Cort Elrick NJS4/5.
 
I'll use an extreme example to illustrate my point.

I bought a slightly used Ibanez GSR200 for $75 and the stock pickups were just terrible, in my opinion.

The P pickup was thin and wimpy sounding, and the J pickup was so noisy that it was literally unusable.

I spent $180 to upgrade to the EMG Geezer PJ set and it transformed this bass into a very capable player that actually sounds great.


Was it worth the money? I think so. But others may disagree.
 
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No worries, asking questions is how we all get information… good or bad.
I don’t think they are the M series since I bought them in 2021. To my knowledge, at that time they only put out the one type of mm style humbucker. Do they compare to the Seymour Duncan smbA? I honestly don’t know. I have a couple basses that I put Seymour Duncans in but they are in the “sweet spot” on those basses. The bass I posted that video for, the Wilkinsons are centered where the jazz pickups use to be… not in the “sweet spot” and audibly different to me. They work but in my experience, cheap or higher priced mm style pickups really shine in that sweet spot. The only benefit of using the Wilkinson pickups on that jazz bass comes from being able to switch them between series and parallel individually.
Please keep in mind that that jazz bass was a project of curiosity at the time and has gone through many many modifications before and after that video was made.

hope this helps:)
Thank you, I'm looking for sound clips and you were really helpful, I want to buy that pickup for a student, she's a child and her parents are not going to spend a lot, she loves my Ibanez SRX400 which have a hum bucker in the Stingray position.
 
I'll use an extreme example to illustrate my point.

I bought a slightly used Ibanez GSR200 for $75 and the stock pickups were just terrible, in my opinion.

The P pickup was thin and wimpy sounding, and the J pickup was so noisy that it was literally unusable.

I spent $180 to upgrade to the EMG Geezer PJ set and it transformed this bass into a very capable player that actually sounds great.


Was it worth the money? I think so. But others may disagree.
This is the easiest way to get those Gio series Ibanez to sound better: pickup upgrades. The stock pickups are pretty anemic, and the Phat EQ is sort of useless, IMHO, but that's another thread. Honestly, most Ibanez from the 400 series and below, and some from the 500-600 series benefit from pickup swaps.
I would never argue electronic upgrades on low to mid-level import instruments to make them usable, playable instruments. After that and a good, detailed set up (including some nut and fret work) they play and sound killer.
 
I didn't watch the video, but I can certainly add an opinion which is based upon my own experiences.

I have an Epiphone Accu-Bass (Epiphone's attempt at copying the P-Bass design/slash sound). It sounds exactly like my '79 P-Bass (I have the audio to prove it).

Then (on a slightly different note) I saw this Flying V knock-off in a local used guitar shop and always passed right by it because ... well ... the name on the head stock. It's a Stagg (I believe the model is an F300?).

One day (it's a long story how this happened), I picked it up and I was blown away! It sounds better than my hoity-toity '08 Epiphone "Goth" V. That's right. They are the stock Stagg pick-ups.

I have a (retail price) $1,700 SR2600 which I think sounds like ... [user redact] ... on a reheated platter.

I think it depends upon the instrument.
 
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Late to party.

Replace the sweet sounding Cort VTB-ST hum cancelling J pup with $18 china made Alnico V overwound J set .

Request overwinding, 8.4k neck / 8.7k bridge.

Solo bridge pup sound meaty without loosing much top end, solo neck pup sound pretty close to 51-ish P vibe.
Blend both pup, massive tone compare to VTB-ST.

Meanwhile, the hum in fairly low level while pickup solo either neck or bridge.

So far love how this china J pup sound.

WhatsApp Image 2024-04-03 at 11.38.12 AM(1).jpeg
WhatsApp Image 2024-04-03 at 11.38.12 AM.jpeg
 
Late to party.

Replace the sweet sounding Cort VTB-ST hum cancelling J pup with $18 china made Alnico V overwound J set .

Request overwinding, 8.4k neck / 8.7k bridge.

Solo bridge pup sound meaty without loosing much top end, solo neck pup sound pretty close to 51-ish P vibe.
Blend both pup, massive tone compare to VTB-ST.

Meanwhile, the hum in fairly low level while pickup solo either neck or bridge.

So far love how this china J pup sound.

View attachment 5406060 View attachment 5406061
where did you get the pickups made? Do you mind sharing?
 
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I'll weigh in my own findings within my settings;

I pieced a precision bass eight years back, & it started off with it's "cheap" pickups & electronics, & when i was done setting it up, it played & sounded decent. Played a few gigs with it as such, & then i upgrade the cheap pickup - & it's mini pots - for a duncan QP I had lying around (from my drummers Hoppus bass we had installed a dimarzio split rails instead), & full size pots. While it was an upgrade, as i started to find the cheap pickup lackluster, lifeless (though it did the trick in a short scale mustang/musicmaster bass i had built & given to a friend of mine way back. So it wasn't terrible just wasn't for my musical tone), the QP would be "short" lived too, as i'd swap it out months down the line for a duncan SPB-2 Hot for pbass. & it's been that way ever since. & I do play with distortion/drives - in each stage of this pbass' life the cheaper pickups sounded thin, the QP would overload my clean signal to begin with ( i may have a heavy hand, but it's also pretty steady), the SPB-2 gave me the fullness without overloading the headroom, & every note is clear - unless i desire to crank the gain & let chaos consume the song.

On a contrary note, I had gotten a slammer by hamer double cut LP jr style guitar, which had two humbuckers that sounded awesome. Though i ripped it all out in favour of making my own Dual cut P90 Jr. the pickup i used was an "economy" one from online which was dirt cheap in cost, but sounds amazing in this guitar! I'm sure there's "better", & i had looked around, but the sound is just as raunchy, gritty & full as a p90 sound is.

I enjoy a variety of tones, i'll usually research to death on various pickups before biting the bullet, but sometimes i luck out with just an off chance it might hunch.

Quoting myself for a small update to my view:

Expensive & cheap pickups can function great, depending on the instrument they are in. But what's "expensive" vs "cheap"? It's all pretty subjective overall. Yes there's "boutique" builders such as Novak, Lollar, Frailin, Bareknuckle, Creamery, etc. Vs the mass produced Duncans, Dimarzio, EMGs, & all the inexpensive from overseas mainland china.

As another update in my examples: I swapped the Duncan hot for pbass pickup from my parts precision for a Pegcity pbass pickup. Canadian boutique builder, but very much affordable in their right. & truth be told, i love my pbass again more than i had before. The Duncan just sounded muffled, lacked the mids i love & left me feeling meh about even picking that bass up. Same thing with the economy p90 pickup from the slammer jr style guitar, also swapped for a pegcity p90 (alnico 3 vs alnico 5 of the economy), & the guitar sounds better to my personal tone.

Most of my guitars have their stock factory pickups (epiphone, dearmond), while most of my basses are custom built by my self & have pickups i want to use (Pegcity, Mojotone, Wilde), some also have "inexpensive" pickups which sound great in that particular instrument. I think it really boils down, at least IMO after building for a decade, the weight of the instrument's body weighs heavier on how a guitar/bass will sound/play/feel. I still have some heavy feeling basses & guitars & enjoy them, however some of them are also lighter in weight, & those ones usually end up playing/sounding better. To the point where i brought the thickness down on my ash body pbass (from 1.75" to 1.6"), & it feels/plays better, even sounds more resonant to me. Also helps to be able to sling it all night for 3 hours with little to no "pain".

When it comes to pickups, as long as it sounds good to you, & works for what you wanted to achieve/heard in your head about your bass/guitar, that's really all that matters.
 
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Hi All,

I came across the above video on youtube...

What are your thoughts and experience in general with regards to the above video demonstrating cheaper vs expensive electronics?

Does changing stock pickups to aftermarket ones really make a huge difference if you use a lot of preamp and amp eq/drive?

Cheers,

I have spent ££££ on pickups, buying every EMG and Seymour Duncan I could. My conclusion is overall design matters more than price. Let me explain.

very cheap pickups utilise shortcuts in their design. single coils will forego individual string magnets and instead use slugs and a cheap bar magnet. That is a change in overall design compared to the original design of individual string magnets found on affordable to expensive single coils. As long as your single coil has individual magnets it’s probably just fine.

The difference between affordable and expensive pickups is small. The more distortion you add to the signal the smaller that difference becomes. By the time you’re at high gain metal the difference is negligible to invisible.

On my Les Paul, I spent around £700 trying different pickups and I was never happy. Seymour Duncan made a great profit from me. Then, in desperation, I bought a set of £55 (Total) humbuckers because they had clear bobbins and looked cool. Jesus Christ! They sounded better than anything I has ever played! Then I built a telecaster and installed a set of £18 (each) pickups and they sound better than any other guitar I own.

the build is less important than the overall design. A humbucker is more or less a humbucker, an original recipe single coil is an original recipe single coil, and a bar magnet single coil is a bar magnet single coil. Find the recipe that works for you and then stop worrying about price, the cheap version of that recipe will probably be just fine.
 
That video is NOT meant to be a comparison between cheap/expensive pickups. It's a comparison between cheap/expensive BASSES. I mean, listen to the clip with the tone at 0%. There's no way these two basses even use the same tone cap, which makes this video utterly useless for comparing the PICKUPS with the tone rolled off. The Affinity sounds like it has a .022 uF tone cap, with lots of upper mids still present with the tone at 0%. And even if the tone cap (and pots) had been the same value, they're still different basses, using different wood, different hardware, different nut material, probably different fret size...

The pickups in these two basses are also very different designs. The ones in the Affinity use ceramic bar magnets, the ones in the AmStd are classic "vintage style" pickups with alnico pole pieces. Ceramic vs alnico will always sound different, in ANY price range. I mean, they will both sound like a J-bass, as long as the pickups are installed in the J-bass positions, but they will be very different sounding J-basses. Comparing ceramic/alnico J-bass pickups will be exactly that: A comparison of ceramic/alnico J-bass pickups. It you want to make a comparison specifically between cheap/expensive J-bass pickups it would have made more sense to use pickups with a similar design, like two different "vintage voiced", alnico pickups.

But this video wasn't made to compare pickups at all. It's a comparison of two different basses. And even then it doesn't tell the whole story. There are lots of very important things a youtube video will never tell you. Things like build quality (neck, fretwork...), QC across the range, neck profile, weight and dead spots (unless dead spots are highlighted in the video, which they never are).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying expensive basses (or pickups) are always better. Some players may prefer the tone/feel of an Affinity (or even cheaper basses like Harley Benton). But objectively speaking, expensive basses are usually better made, use better parts and have better consistency/QC. Trying before buying is even more important with cheap instruments, as they generally vary a LOT more than expensive instruments.

As for comparing cheap vs expensive PICKUPS... Sure, there will be differences, even when comparing pickups of the same design. But with most traditional, vintage voiced alnico J-bass pickups we're talking about relatively subtle differences. In a blind test you could easily find that you like the cheap one better, this is often just a matter of taste. But changing to a different type of strings, or adjusting the tone control slightly, will usually make a LOT more difference, unless one of the pickups is specifically designed to sound different, like overwound pickups or pickups using larger magnet pole pieces. But at that point it's not really a cheap/expensive comparison at all, but a comparison of differently voiced pickups.

But like I said, that video is a comparison of two different BASSES. The only way to make any meaningful comparison of PICKUPS would be to install them in the same bass, using the same strings, the same wiring/electronics, record them through the same signal chain, with the tone control at either 0% or 100%. The "50%" setting has too much margin of error. If the position of the tone control at "50%" is just slightly off, it can change the tone a lot more than the difference of the pickups themselves. I guess you could get close enough if you used a sharpie or a piece of tape to carefully mark the 50% position but I have yet to see a comparison video that actually does this.

And even if a pickup comparison is recorded to perfection, with all other variables eliminated (which isn't really possible as the playing will never be 100% identical on two separate recordings), there is no guarantee that the pickup you prefer in the youtube video will be the one you prefer with YOUR bass, played through YOUR rig, for the style of music YOU play.

The audio quality of youtube videos is also an issue. But even with a high quality recording, your listening environment would make a HUGE difference. I mean, even if the recording is 100% unprocessed and recorded though a high quality CLEAN DI, you're probably not re-amping it through you bass rig, right? Are you at least listening through high end nearfield monitors in an acoustically treated room, or using high end headphones with a relatively flat frequency response, though a good headphone amp? Or are you listening through consumer headphones through a laptop headphone output? The latter will color the tone to a point where the audio is utterly useless for any kind of critical listening. It doesn't matter if the recording is 100% unprocessed if you're "processing" it though consumer headphones. Any differences between two J-bass pickups will be negligible compared to the tonal coloration you get from most consumer headphones.

Comparison videos like these can be fun and maybe give you a general idea what to expect, if they're not too heavily processed (which they often are...). But they're pretty useless for making good decisions about gear purchases IMO. ESPECIALLY with pickups, where the differences can be extremely subtle.
 
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EMG a is in a way a "cheap" brand vs. other western made brands considering it's their original designs that have extra circuitry inside them, and they even include in extra pots and wires. But nothing cheap about their quality!

If I only cared about vintage style pickups, and didn't care about supporting local makers, Donlis and Tonerider exists and anything pricier is cork sniffing.
 
All magnetic guitar/bass pickups (there is no magic difference, other than where the pole pieces are and how the thing is mounted), that makes a pickup a "guitar pickup" or a "bass pickup" have a similar frequency response. They are all flat in the bass and lover mids, have a peak somewhere in the upper mids or lower treble, and above that, the response falls off at 12 dB/octave. The frequency where that resonant peak in the upper mids/lower treble shows up depends on the inductance of the pickup, and the capacitive load - some of which is in the windings, and the rest in in your cable. You can also add your own loading if you want to - a loading capacitor. The height of that peak is determined by damping in the system. Some of that damping is in the pickup (you can add or remove damping in the construction of a pickup with shorting rings or similar structures that add eddy currents), some of it is in the pots you use in the bass, and some of it is in the input impedance of whatever you plug it into.

As far as how much you can alter the tone of a pickup, that depends on a number of things. In the case of Fenderish pickups - where the magnets are the same in pretty much all the Fender designs, and most of the clones, in a lot of designs, the only things that makes one sound different from the next one are the number of turns and the winding pattern. Yes, there are other things that can affect performance, but there are a whole lot of folks that copy magnet materials, sizes, and wire gauges (there is a religious adherence to 42 gauge wire in many of these winders), to where the only real difference is the number of turns and the winding pattern. The number of turns affects the inductance, and the winding pattern alters the pickup's interwinding capacitance.

If your buy pickups that are on the low side in terms of inductance, you can tune their response via loading capacitance to where they can sound like a pickup with more turns. If you buy a pickup on the high side in terms of inductance, you can't undo that - there are no negative capacitors.

My step son had a Squier affinity strat. The pickups on that were wound rather low in inductance - they seem to have actually used a bigger gauge of wire, and wound with lower turns than a "normal" strat". Why would they do that? One of the things you can do to make a pickup cheaper is wind them faster. Fewer turns means less time on the machine (more pickups per hour), and a fatter wire gauge means it's stronger, so you can wind the turns faster without breaking wires. so , the thing sounded thin - low inductance. With some shorted turns and loading caps to move the resonance peak to where a normal strat would be, the thing sounded a LOT better.

Pickups are magnets, sometimes pole pieces, and wire. Everything else is there to hold those things in place - there is no magic in the flatwork materials, the plastic used in the covers, etc. And the differences between most pickups of the same flavor (P pickups, for example) are smaller than most folks want to think they are. If the winder's name on your Fenderish pickup makes you think it's special, I have no problem with that, but in reality, it's not as magical as you think. In a blind test, I'm sure i could find (and load) a cheaper alternative pickup that would sound just the same to you.

If you buy a fancy pickup to put in your bass, and you want it to sound better, I highly suggest you put on fresh strings when you change pickups. You'll be amazed at how much better the "new pickup" makes your bass sound.
If I understand this right, are you generally saying that no pickup has “extra bass or mids “ and that different levels or resistance in the wires/pickups effect the treble frequencies? I find that very fascinating!

I appreciate the two distinct realms of “magical” thinking vs rationality and physics. The worlds of metaphor vs the world of numbers. People think they hear a lot of stuff.
 
Itr seems to me that many are 'changing' their pickups on already fairly high end instruments - the upgraded sound may be harder to discern than modding a more basic one, which is what I did.

My completely modded BB234 uses Hipshot and EMG hardware which transformed the instrument altogether. Everything about it has been improved.

This is risky business but a particular direction can be plotted with enough research and listening to sample clips. Specs also generally tell the results you're going to get for any particular sound - reading up on guitar electronics andc build details in general is a huge help in finding your way...

Personally, as a player but not a performer, I doubt I'll ever spend a pile on a bass and then proceed to create a better instrument out of it. Too many middle of the road models to start with and tweak to one's own delight!
 
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If I understand this right, are you generally saying that no pickup has “extra bass or mids “ and that different levels or resistance in the wires/pickups effect the treble frequencies? I find that very fascinating!

I appreciate the two distinct realms of “magical” thinking vs rationality and physics. The worlds of metaphor vs the world of numbers. People think they hear a lot of stuff.
Pickups are flat in the bass and lower mids - below 1 kHz or so. Above that, the inductance (not the resistance)of the pickup, along with the interwinding capacitance in the pickup and the cable capacitance determines where the resonance peak is (frequency wise). How high that peak is depends on several resistances - the volume and tone pots, the resistance of the windings, and the resistance from a parasitic effect (eddy current losses).

People tend to associate things they hear with things they can see or read. Hence, they will associate things from DC resistance specs, or physical things they can see to what they hear. A lot of people think a P bass sounds different than a J bass neck pickup because of how wide the coils are - that is what they can see, that must be it. But it isn't - a P bass pickup has about twice the inductance of a J pickup in many cases, and that makes a big difference.