Expensive vs cheap pickups?

[Brian Patterson]

Pickups are flat in the bass and lower mids - below 1 kHz or so. Above that, the inductance (not the resistance)of the pickup, along with the interwinding capacitance in the pickup and the cable capacitance determines where the resonance peak is (frequency wise). How high that peak is depends on several resistances - the volume and tone pots, the resistance of the windings, and the resistance from a parasitic effect (eddy current losses).

People tend to associate things they hear with things they can see or read. Hence, they will associate things from DC resistance specs, or physical things they can see to what they hear. A lot of people think a P bass sounds different than a J bass neck pickup because of how wide the coils are - that is what they can see, that must be it. But it isn't - a P bass pickup has about twice the inductance of a J pickup in many cases, and that makes a big difference.

So how do we utilize this info regarding what we can control? I don't understand the influence of inductance. Do we have any options here?

 

[Swamp_Ronin]

Pickups are flat in the bass and lower mids - below 1 kHz or so. Above that, the inductance (not the resistance)of the pickup, along with the interwinding capacitance in the pickup and the cable capacitance determines where the resonance peak is (frequency wise). How high that peak is depends on several resistances - the volume and tone pots, the resistance of the windings, and the resistance from a parasitic effect (eddy current losses).

People tend to associate things they hear with things they can see or read. Hence, they will associate things from DC resistance specs, or physical things they can see to what they hear. A lot of people think a P bass sounds different than a J bass neck pickup because of how wide the coils are - that is what they can see, that must be it. But it isn't - a P bass pickup has about twice the inductance of a J pickup in many cases, and that makes a big difference.

I agree with all that you are saying, but….

Can you explain this, without any technical terms or numbers? Pretend you’re talking to an ancient hobbit who’s never taken a science class.

 

[micguy]

I agree with all that you are saying, but….

Can you explain this, without any technical terms or numbers? Pretend you’re talking to an ancient hobbit who’s never taken a science class.

To understand this? sorry, but no. If you want to understand how a savings account works, you need to use numbers. If you want to understand how a pickup works, some science (and therefore also math) is involved. Could I teach that to you? yes, but not in one post on a forum.

 

[HelpImaRock]

So how do we utilize this info regarding what we can control? I don't understand the influence of inductance. Do we have any options here?

I'm no math whiz, but here's what I've learned over the years.

Inductance is output in henries. The higher the number, the higher the output. A 4 henry pickup is going to have lower output than an 8 henry pickup. Unfortunately, some companies don't list henries for output. Dimarzio lists millivolts. Seymour Duncan doesn't really use anything.

DC resistance isn't really a good indicator. Now if you have the same type of pickup with the same magnet and wire gauge, then DC resistance can be an indicator. But that's it.

Magnet type can have an effect. But it's really about the entire recipe and how the different parts interact. And then, what you need to achieve your musical goals.

There is a bunch of stuff you can learn about how electric instruments, pedals, and amplifiers work without math. But there's also a lot of posters on gear forums who have lots of experience in their field, and now have lots of time to express themselves. Colloquial knowledge is beneath them. Or they just like to stir things up.

 

[ThaCoast]

I'll weigh in my own findings within my settings;

I pieced a precision bass eight years back, & it started off with it's "cheap" pickups & electronics, & when i was done setting it up, it played & sounded decent. Played a few gigs with it as such, & then i upgrade the cheap pickup - & it's mini pots - for a duncan QP I had lying around (from my drummers Hoppus bass we had installed a dimarzio split rails instead), & full size pots. While it was an upgrade, as i started to find the cheap pickup lackluster, lifeless (though it did the trick in a short scale mustang/musicmaster bass i had built & given to a friend of mine way back. So it wasn't terrible just wasn't for my musical tone), the QP would be "short" lived too, as i'd swap it out months down the line for a duncan SPB-2 Hot for pbass. & it's been that way ever since. & I do play with distortion/drives - in each stage of this pbass' life the cheaper pickups sounded thin, the QP would overload my clean signal to begin with ( i may have a heavy hand, but it's also pretty steady), the SPB-2 gave me the fullness without overloading the headroom, & every note is clear - unless i desire to crank the gain & let chaos consume the song.

On a contrary note, I had gotten a slammer by hamer double cut LP jr style guitar, which had two humbuckers that sounded awesome. Though i ripped it all out in favour of making my own Dual cut P90 Jr. the pickup i used was an "economy" one from online which was dirt cheap in cost, but sounds amazing in this guitar! I'm sure there's "better", & i had looked around, but the sound is just as raunchy, gritty & full as a p90 sound is.

I enjoy a variety of tones, i'll usually research to death on various pickups before biting the bullet, but sometimes i luck out with just an off chance it might hunch.

Quoting myself because my two examples above, have had their pickups upgraded. For the past year or so, i had found a Canadian company, Pegcity pickups, & the pbass got a straight 60's vintage spec pickup, while the Jr has a slightly overwound dog ear Alnico 3 pickup (alnico 3 magnet is vintage accurate for this type of pickup. I was suggested to overwind by 5% for a little mid push). & while i paid sub 200$ for each pickup (bought one at a time), I gotta say there is an improvement compared to the dark & dull of the spb-2 & the economy pickup wasn't bad, just started lacking anything truly JR worthy.

Personally, i've acquired a taste for low-medium output pickups, due to my own sound & such. I don't feel like i'm distorting too early when i don't want, or sounds like flubb that i can't get rid of.

 

[Doug4321]

Very interesting discussion

Micguy before has said inductance (henries) is more of a factor than resistance. But, resistance and inductance are correlated I’ve found, where both are reported. A lot of companies only report resistance if anything. So that’s all to go on.

High resistance pickups are louder and have a rolled off high end. The high end sounds “squashed” really, a particular sound, different from simple eq. I have a jazz, precision and an old EB0, pretty clear differences. That’s 7k, 10.4 k, 30k resistance.

The hot, high resistance pickups sound more bass heavy because they’re louder plus the high end is rolled off.

Also, Wide pickups (wide aperture) such as most humbuckers (and Precision pickups) have a high end roll off due to sensing the string along a wider length, or in two close positions.

AFAIK! Someone will correct me if wrong!

The physics of what is resistance and inductance I can’t explain

 

[Swamp_Ronin]

To understand this? sorry, but no. If you want to understand how a savings account works, you need to use numbers. If you want to understand how a pickup works, some science (and therefore also math) is involved. Could I teach that to you? yes, but not in one post on a forum.

but what if someone wants to understand what a savings account is for?

 

[micguy]

Very interesting discussion

Micguy before has said inductance (henries) is more of a factor than resistance. But, resistance and inductance are correlated I’ve found, where both are reported.

Inductance is definitely the biggest part of what you really want to know. IF two pickups are made with the same magnetic structure (a lot of wonders make almost exact copies of a P or J pickup) and IF they both use the same gauge wire (a lot of pickups winders stick with 42 gauge wire), THEN you can make some inference about relative inductances - the one with the higher DC resistance is higher inductance, and the inductance ratio will be about the same as the resistance ratio squared.

This works sometimes, but there are traps. Let's take P pickups - there are a lot of 11K, 12K, 13 K DC resistance pickups. You might even find one wound to 14K. You will see 20 K DC resistance pickups...but you won't typically see 16K DC resistance P pickups. Why? If you start winding P pickups with #42 wire, at some point (maybe around 14 K or 15 K Ohms, it depends on the physical dimensions of things, which can change a bit) you run out of room for more #42 wire. If you want more turns, you are forced to use smaller wire. That's not a problem, there are plenty of wire gauges smaller than #42. Wire gauges are about 10% jumps in diameter, which area wise means a 21 percent jump in resistance for the same number of turns when you go one gauge smaller. So, if you're trying to wind a 16 K DC resistance pickup, you get to the part where the wire doesn't fit, you start over with #43 wire (1 size smaller). 16 k multiplied by 1.21 gives you 19.4 K.

A 19.4 K DC resistance pickup (wound with #43 wire) has the same number of turns (and therefore the same inductance) as a 16 K DC resistance pickup wound with #42 wire would (if the wire would fit). So....., you're comparing pickup specs, and you think that a 20 K pickup must be a lot hotter than a 14 K one. It is a bit hotter, but nowhere near as much as you think - reality has stepped in and changed things you didn't think it would.

OK, one more simple example. I have 5 string basses. Say I buy a set of 5 string pickups that have a 9.6 K DC resistance. The 4 string variety has an 8 K DC resistance. That's 20 % more DC resistance, so it must be 20% hotter, and have 1.44 times the inductance (inductance is proportional to turns squared) - right?. Well, you're a bit wrong on both counts. The 5 string pickups have 20% more DC resistance, but it takes 20% more wire to make a turn, so they have the same number of turns. Despite having 20% more DC resistance, the 5 string pickups are not hotter - they are the same output level (turns is what gets you output). They do have more inductance, but not by the square ratio you would assume from reading DC resistance. The 5 string pickups have an extra set of magnets and/or pole pieces - they have 25% more "iron" in the coil, so they will have about 25% more inductance.

My point is..resistance and inductance are correlated in some circumstances, but if you don't understand where that assumption makes sense, and where it doesn't, you're just guessing.

 

[micguy]

Also, Wide pickups (wide aperture) such as most humbuckers (and Precision pickups) have a high end roll off due to sensing the string along a wider length, or in two close positions.

YES!!! Thanks you!!!

I can't believe the number of times where I've read that a pickup with wider pole pieces "senses more string and thus gives you more harmonics" - that oft repeated statement is completely false - sensing more string length means it rolls off high frequencies sooner. Not that this is a wavelength phenomenon - as the frequency on different strings is different for the same wavelength, the rolloff due to this depends on what frequency the string is tuned to.

Note, however, that a Precision pickup and a Jazz pickup use very similar size pole pieces - they sense pretty much the same amount of string length. The width of the coils is NOT what determines this, and even if it were, under the hood of a P pickup, the coils aren't as wide as you think they are from looking at the housing. The reason a P pickup sounds darker than a J is because it typically has about twice the inductance - coil geometry is what people see, but it isn't what makes the thing sound different.

 

[kodiakblair]

Last Sunday I replaced the custom quad coil/51 single coil footprint pickup in my P-bass for a more traditional low wire count alnico 5 single coil.

The new single coil came from China and cost £9. Fibre flatwork, white string wrap, wax potted and cloth push up wire; was given the choice of staggered A/D, raised A or flat across poles. Included was rubber tubing, springs, wood screws, machine screw for surround mount and 4 foam pads.



This afternoon I ordered another 2 of them, 1 will replaced the custom 29.9k hum-cancelling/single coil footprint in my main bass and the other will go in the Paisley Fender.

Next time I think about buying an expensive pickup I'll blow £185 on this instead, will get the same level of improvement over the current black plastic knob.