Factory refinish or just an old refinish... '64 P-bass

[boroman]

Calling all pre-CBS specialists!

I disassembled my '64 P to see if its really a "refin". Well it looks like, but the paint job is VERY old for sure. When I bought it I've been told it's a refin, but could it be a "factory refin"? I see no "ES" stamps. I've already asked the best specialist here and he says "just a refin", but wanted to make sure:

 

[boroman]

...no paint in the nail holes. So that's a mystery to me

 

[boroman]

My theory is: This is the original paintjob, but factory overspray. Maybe something got wrong in the first spraying and they went for 2nd try later? I know that the paint stick on the neck pocket is opposite holes (but the same thickness).
- There's is original yellow sealer under the paper sticker in the pickup cavity as on the whole body too (seen in some worn out places).
- There are visible and "untouched" nail holes that havent got any paint in them and they are clearly there
- Ground wiring from bridge looks untouched (under the bridge - no relocations and "pushed" wood other than 1 place)

Looks like just oversprayed (I guess: sealer + sunburst + sunburst again + clear coat)

 

[Wisebass]

hi boroman

could it be a "factory refin"?

I don't think that it is a factory job!

I've already asked the best specialist here and he says "just a refin"

And he didn't tell you why?

Here is why I think it is not a factory job (but I would love to hear some other opinions too!!!!):

Maybe something got wrong in the first spraying and they went for 2nd try later? I know that the paint stick on the neck pocket is opposite holes (but the same thickness).

The refin used a similar method but on the wrong side. No problem so far.​

But this 5th hole should not be there! It makes no sense on a pre CBS bass!!!!!

A 5th hole wasn't used for painting in pre CBS times!!!

It was probabely drilled to hang the bass for drying and/ or during painting.

CBS! started to use a 5th hole in the neck pocket on their basses in 1970.

But the hole was in a different location!

- There are visible and "untouched" nail holes that havent got any paint in them

Whoever did the refin maybe used the old nail holes for…………….. nails?

Just for the same reason, they were used by the Fender guys. (to manipulate the bass while painting it)

It makes sense. You don't want to make it look like a swiss cheese.


I hope I could help


greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[FranF]

Definitely not factory. Those speckles everywhere would never be let out of the factory.

 

[boroman]

@Wisebass 5th hole was present in some of the pre-cbs instruments. You can easily found a photos of dead-stock ones with 5th hole. Position of the hole varied. I have it on my 1962 P but I haven't got it on '60 P.

Here, the paint stick is opposite but correct size.

Here's the shot of factory olympic white over sunburst from circa the same era - the same case (fifth hole in the neck pocket,. in the same place like mine and also paint stick mounted on the other side)

Definitely not factory. Those speckles everywhere would never be let out of the factory.

I have already seen one strat like that - in person.

Two reputable vintage dealers already said that it's very possible it's a factory overspray. One said it isn't. The case is, I was going to disassemble the bass and put new paint on it but saw that empty nail holes, that oversprayed sticker in the pickup cavity, the correct yellow sealer and on the back when the paint is worn, you could see red coming out from worn black overspray, so it's deafinitely sunburst over sunburst

 

[Wisebass]

Hi boroman

5th hole was present in some of the pre-cbs instruments. You can easily found a photos of dead-stock ones with 5th hole. Position of the hole varied. I have it on my 1962 P but I haven't got it on '60 P.

Here, the paint stick is opposite but correct size.

(but I would love to hear some other opinions too!!!!):

This is why I love TB!!! I can learn a lot of stuff!

e.g. I didn't know that black pups existed on 70s Fenders before I joined TB!

The case is, I was going to disassemble the bass and put new paint on it but saw that empty nail holes, that oversprayed sticker in the pickup cavity, the correct yellow sealer and on the back when the paint is worn, you could see red coming out from worn black overspray, so it's deafinitely sunburst over sunburst

So they did use a 5th hole for factory refins (I did not know that!) thx!!!!

I know that they did a bunch of black over sunburst (when the sun didn't shine )

Whenever a sunburst wasn't good they contiued to spray the black over the burst,

until it was a black blackburst. (Monday morning burst)

I've naver seen a sunburst over sunburst.



greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[fretno]

The specs looks like it's all over spray , that may actually come off . With the right technique and tools .

 

[boroman]

The specs looks like it's all over spray , that may actually come off . With the right technique and tools .

Not this time unfortunately.. The checking is heavy and flakes comes off down to the yellow sealer, so those layers were pretty melted into each other. My guess its sealer->sunburst->sunburst>clear coat. Without clear after 1st sunburst. It may be the reason, but I may be wring of course. Guessing...

Hi boroman
So they did use a 5th hole for factory refins (I did not know that!) thx!!!!
I know that they did a bunch of black over sunburst (when the sun didn't shine )
Whenever a sunburst wasn't good they contiued to spray the black over the burst,

Love your quotes Wisebass
Yep, looks like that. a '62 was a refin but not a factory one (still don't know if the 5th hole was made in the factory or not). But when you google, you'll see a some of original paintjobs with 5th holes. Mostly after '65 but some pre CBS too. My hole is not sticking on the other side of the pocket, so it's a short one.... Allright, never mind. Fur sure it's an overspray on the original finish tho...

 

[_Obra_]

You should maybe post Your question at TB Fender pre-CBS Club.
There are some pretty experienced people in the club

 

[elgranluis]

At this point , it really would make no difference $$ if the bass had a factory refin or not.

Now, to answer the original question , it simply looks like an old refin. Let's say the previous owner didn't like having a worn out instrument , and sure enough liked his sunburst. So well, someone simply sprayed a sunburst over the original. It doesn't look like a factory job at all.

 

[TheCouchBassist]

hi boroman



I don't think that it is a factory job!



And he didn't tell you why?

Here is why I think it is not a factory job (but I would love to hear some other opinions too!!!!):

The refin used a similar method but on the wrong side. No problem so far.​

But this 5th hole should not be there! It makes no sense on a pre CBS bass!!!!!

A 5th hole wasn't used for painting in pre CBS times!!!

View attachment 3826209

It was probabely drilled to hang the bass for drying and/ or during painting.

CBS! started to use a 5th hole in the neck pocket on their basses in 1970.

But the hole was in a different location!

View attachment 3826210



Whoever did the refin maybe used the old nail holes for…………….. nails?

Just for the same reason, they were used by the Fender guys. (to manipulate the bass while painting it)

It makes sense. You don't want to make it look like a swiss cheese.


I hope I could help


greetings

Wise(b)ass

Pretty compelling/complete response there. I was just about to point out the fifth hole as the smoking gun.....ha ha ha. Brilliant response.

 

[Wisebass]

hi Ross

Brilliant response.

thx for the compliment.

But I was wrong!

I knew that the paint stick method was first used in late 62;

I also knew that in 63 the paint stick method was not used on all basses.

So a neck pocket showing a 'displaced' paintstick was not a surprise.

The refin used a similar method but on the wrong side. No problem so far.

The 5th hole was used on factory refins! (and it is even in the right place!)

Right now I can only speculate!

Wise(b)ass

 

[TheCouchBassist]

hi Ross



thx for the compliment.

But I was wrong!

I knew that the paint stick method was first used in late 62;

I also knew that in 63 the paint stick method was not used on all basses.

So a neck pocket showing a 'displaced' paintstick was not a surprise.



The 5th hole was used on factory refins! (and it is even in the right place!)

Right now I can only speculate!

Wise(b)ass

It was still a great response (in my book) because you provided concrete reasons for your opinion and not the typical "it's a non-factory refin" with absolutely nothing to back up their claim.

 

[grdIbrmpf]

Hello! I´m from Germany, so please execuse my bad English first.
I spent some time with the bass because it was offered to me for purchase.
Unfortunately, he lacks the CITES documents that are absolutely necessary for a legal transaction with Dalbergia Nigra.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As a result of my investigations, no participation by the Fender company in the formation of the top sunburst lacquer layer can be determined.
At first, these are the most important points:
One of the most important points is the presence of red on the front in the lower area, which is then covered by the Pickguard. There is simply no such thing with old Fender basses.

If they wanted to hide a failed sunburst, they would have cleaned the nozzles and not accepted such a bad job.
The photos under black light that I received do not show the expected yellow shimmer. However, this may also be due to an unsuitable lamp.

One of the nail holes was covered with paint, this part of the paint is missing in a later photo.
The paint is unusually thick.

The paintstick from the first painting process must have been unusually wide, since an unpainted stripe can be seen next to the usually paint-free area.

The thickness of the paint, the wrong surface structure and strange polishing scratches on the entire front also do not speak for an original / factory original paint.

Unfortunately I did not get a photo of the back of the neck plate together with the relevant body area for a mirror image comparison.

I have therefore decided not to buy.
Hope that helps.

 

[The Bass Clef]

I 100% agree with @FranF that the speckled paint job is NOT a factory Fender job. The nail hole near the neck pocket also does look to have paint in it to me. Besides that, the factory refins during this era would have had a 4 digit code (each digit 1/2" tall) empressed into the wood to keep track of a customer's bass vs. a new bass in their paint booth. Fender also would not have done the red around the lower bout because it's hidden by the pickguard and Fender NEVER did sunbursts like that because it wasted red paint. It's a regular refin done with a spray gun that was not pro grade (which results in all those the speckles). There is zero doubt about this one.

 

[boroman]

Dear "grdIbrmpf" - Michael, right?

I have spent many hours of speaking to you that ended with nothing and you just generally wasted a lot of my time - not to mention you tried to convince me I am not the owner of this bass and a scammer, even when I have sent you dozens of photos each day and have reassembled bass twice (!) for you.

Please do not post MY PICTURES in your thread, because that was sent to you privately. That's copyright violation. You were asking for blacklight photos where I dont have "black light" and stuff here - I told you - come here, check with your light and stuff. I am not a dealer. I am a player. I dont have CITES and stuff. Not needed. I will not reassemble bass again and again.

And also told you - you can believe it's a factory refin or not - for me it does not really matter. I have couple of dealer repsonses that it might be factory (done really close to the 1st lacquer) but it could be "just a refin" that I also wrote to you. One is clear - the original lacquer is underneath the top layer. Bass wasn't advertised anywhere. If you don't want it - just don't buy it. It's so simple. I'm happy to keep it anyway.

 

[grdIbrmpf]

Hello Greg, as you know I quoted the pictures for the one and only purpose: to be able to deal
mentally with their content, for which you explicitly opened the thread and explicitly asked for the help of the readers by interpreting the picture content made available for this purpose. I also understood the sending of the other photos as explicitly for the purpose of quoting in the sense of an expertise of an object you offered me for sale. If you now - e.g. because of the undesirable results of this image content - insist on the copyright and revoke its use, then that's your right and I have to comply with what I would of course do, but it seems the thread cannot be changed afterwards. In that respect, it would be nice if it would be okay for you if I no longer use them from now on.