Fakes?

[Obese Chess]

Speaking only for myself, it wasn't until I checked Luchi's auctions that I took sides with Ken.

As was pointed out earlier it wasn't that they were knock-offs butthe fact that many of those auctions used wording that was not just implying, but stating plainly, that they were Ken Smith basses. That is very dishonest IMO.

If they were just knock-offs and didn't state or imply that they were Ken Smith basses then I wouldn't care and I doubt Ken would either. This is no different than what Rondo does or what Ken does now when it comes to Fender-style basses. Neither party, Ken or Rondo, state what they make is a Fender bass. In fact, if Luchi were to make Fender-style basses and state that his basses were Fenders, or even use their name in the description of the bass, I would be willing to bet that Fender would be all over him.

Tim actually mentioned one way of advertising (free Fender picks, etc) that seems to be an accepted way of getting around the issue of getting hits on a web site. If Luchi did this then again I doubt it would be an issue. The problem is the description of the bass itself.

Just my $0.02.

Exactly

 

[Obese Chess]

I agree, however I do find the complaints to be a bit hypocritical coming from one of the most blatant cloners on the market. I find the clones here http://www.brooklyngear.com/ksdbass.php to be much more of a rip off in my opinion and the fact that he uses '60's J Bass & '70's J Bass and not Fender to sell copies is merely a semantical hair splitting to me as these basses are clearly "designed" to be as close to a Fender as legally possible and are well past morally acceptable from a design standpoint IMHO.

If these thoughts are frightening call me a name (not directed at 69nites)

Right, but KSD isn't selling them as Fenders.

 

[Lo end PUNCH]

If a company is not using the folowing terms, then no, I would not:

Fender®, Jazz Bass®, P Bass®, & Precision Bass® are registered trademarks of Fender Musical Instruments Corp.

Oh??? Then we have a REALLY big probem because everyone and their SISTER uses the term.....Jazz Bass! Check out as many companies as you want. I've got a question for Ken though; Why DID you go with a J bass design and not your own?, which IMHO, is one of the things that make your basses so attractive in the first place.

 

[BurningSkies]

HAHAHAHA!!!

I was bashing him before Ken acknowledged me.
I'm the son of a copyright lawyer, what can you expect?

The only thing people should be bashing this guy for is that he was selling basses as "Ken Smith", "Alembic", and "Fodera". Not "Ken Smith-Style", "Alembic-Style", and "Fodera-Style".

The reason most of us have no problems with buying Fender-style knockoffs is that they are not advertised as FENDER BASSES. That was my problem, the false advertising.

You got it. I'm also a guy who works with copyright. The problem isn't that the basses look like someone elses basses, it's that they're being sold AS Ken Smith Basses.

If Warmoth started selling their basses as 'Fender' basses or if KSD (which btw, IIRC Ken's only real connection is the design consultation he did) called their bass a "FENDER JAZZ BASS" we'd have a problem. They don't.

Its also ridiculous for those who agree with Ken's stance to be smeared as suck ups. I have no plans on ever owning a KSB. Anyone who knows me knows that I have a luthier of choice.

In the money where your mouth is side of things...look at my gear. All of my 'Fender Style' guitars are made by Fender. The other brand instruments I own are of completely individual design.

 

[Luchi Luthier]

Well, I said "respect" before this got REALLY out of hand.
And I retracted the "respect" when it DID get out of hand

PS: THESE ARE STILL TOTALLY UNNECESSARY, LUCHI

where have you being? i am not using the dudes for many posting pages... get on the wagon..

 

[Headroom]

Oh??? Then we have a REALLY big probem because everyone and their SISTER uses the term.....Jazz Bass! Check out as many companies as you want.

There is no "we" in this situation. It is entirely up to the owner of the copyright or trademark as to whether they choose to take legal action to protect their property. It is up to the courts to determine whether, through common use, a previously trademarked term has become generic and can no longer be protected under trademark law.

 

[Eric Perry]

HAHAHAHA!!!The only thing people should be bashing this guy for is that he was selling basses as "Ken Smith", "Alembic", and "Fodera". Not "Ken Smith-Style", "Alembic-Style", and "Fodera-Style".

I understand and agree with that.

Oh, and the "HAHAHA" was me laughing at myself, not you!
Don't worry!
You make a good point

No worries, bro.

 

[The Penguin]

PS: THESE ARE STILL TOTALLY UNNECESSARY, LUCHI

You've mentioned this a number of times yet you have 2 of them in your sig meaning you post that guy more than Luchi. Does anyone see irony anymore?

 

[The Penguin]

The only thing people should be bashing this guy for is that he was selling basses as "Ken Smith", "Alembic", and "Fodera". Not "Ken Smith-Style", "Alembic-Style", and "Fodera-Style".

I agree with that, I think confusion is coming from 2 issues being confused as one. The name stealing which no one seems to be defending and the design stealing which is a bit more blurry and subjective.

Right, but KSD isn't selling them as Fenders.

I thought that was pretty clear.

 

[Luchi Luthier]

You've mentioned this a number of times yet you have 2 of them in your sig meaning you post that guy more than Luchi. Does anyone see irony anymore?

i owe you a beer...

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I didn't say I didn't like you, just that I see you as a liar and a thief in your eBay auctions. We could still hang out and have a few beers The same ethics works both ways, KS ripping off Fender does not make you ripping off KS any less wrong. On the other hand I do appreciate you admitting selling your stuff as KS is wrong.

First off, what do I have to do or say to you and the others to make you understand that the KSD is NOT my Bass. The body was chosen by BrooklynGear. I did the head design and the other specs to make it work as the BG team and I discussed. If you are worring about Fender Rip-offs, have you posted this question to Sadowsky who makes most of his living (aside from repairs) from selling Fender designs?

If Fender has a problem with me, they can call me. They already called 2x this week alone for artwork of my Logo for their catalog listing my Strings.

Please don't say KSD is selling this or that. KSD is a Bass model designed for BrooklynGear and not a company in itself. KSD sells nothing. BrooklynGear sells the KSD model Bass.

Also, to all of you bringing up the KSD subject in trying to couple me with a person 'stealing' my name, I want to actually thank you and ask you to 'keep it going'. You are giving the KSD so much advertising that I expect Brooklyn Gear to make out a new Christmas list!

I've got a question for Ken though; Why DID you go with a J bass design and not your own?, which IMHO, is one of the things that make your basses so attractive in the first place.

Again, this was the choice of BrooklynGear. In this matter, I was working for them. On the older Burner Series Basses we produced with Japanese partnership (1989-2000), I used my own designs. There are many original Basses on the market as well that use the J-style pickups. Does anyone have a problem with them not having there own pickup design?

Many people seem to think that if they can find fault in one party then any opposing party is therefore ipso facto pure as the driven snow. To me this is a fight between a small time cloner and a big time cloner, neither have any moral high ground as both sell copies without the blessing of the designers. Luchi knows he's been busted and is lying about what he's done, KS knows what he is doing and is trying to distance himself in this thread from basses sold as Ken Smith Basses, I suspect he'll delete this thread soon now that a few people are pointing out the inconsistency.

As far as Deleteing this Thread goes now that I have been accused of ripping off Fender, I can't see that happening since any PR can turn into good PR.

KS knows what he is doing and is trying to distance himself in this thread from basses sold as Ken Smith Basses

I still cant figure out what you are referring to with this statement.

The only bad news for you complainers out there is that as you promote the KSDs by just mentioning them, my Royalites will go up and I am NOT sharing any of it with you!

 

[Luchi Luthier]

a lot of explanation for this and that.. KSD, brooklin gir (need to use a style name) NOT "THE NAME" and they advertise your design, your name to show a FENDER DESIGN... and i bet the Ken Smith Design Lined Fretless J Bass, 4 String / Ken Smith Design Lined Fretless J Bass, 5 String were very hard designs to come up with.. they dont look nothing like fenders.. so how long took you to COPY, oops , to design those? right... none! copy and paste is very easy to do it....

 

[tbrannon]

The only bad news for you complainers out there is that as you promote the KSDs by just mentioning them, my Royalites will go up and I am NOT sharing any of it with you!

Good stuff and Good on 'ya!!

 

[Headroom]

You are giving the KSD so much advertising that I expect Brooklyn Gear to make out a new Christmas list!

One sure-fire marketing technique to appeal to musicians around the globe would be an image of some AAAA grade exotic Brazilian ash on the beach in Rio. I can almost hear the Jobim playing softly in the background right now.

 

[superblues]

a lot of explanation for this and that.. KSD, brooklin gir (need to use a style name) NOT "THE NAME" and they advertise your design, your name to show a FENDER DESIGN... and i bet the Ken Smith Design Lined Fretless J Bass, 4 String / Ken Smith Design Lined Fretless J Bass, 5 String were very hard designs to come up with.. they dont look nothing like fenders.. so how long took you to COPY, oops , to design those? right... none! copy and paste is very easy to do it....

I'm sure this point has been made before but...

Ken Smith and BrooklynGear are not labeling the KSD basses as "Fender" basses. In fact, the word Fender, Fender-like, Fender-Designed, or any of Fender's trademarked names are not used in the advertising or description of any KSD bass. The Fender Jazz Bass design has been copied countless times by countless companies, and to my immediate knowledge, there are no current legal issues stopping anyone from making such a design (excluding the headstock shape).

However, this does not necessarily set a precendent for copies of any other company's designs. It only sets the precedent for Fender's designs that have already been copied. What appliess to one company's design does not necessarily apply to all designs from all companies.

and furthermore, it is plainly unethical and simply illegal (at least in my country) to use another manufacturer's name on an item that manufacturer did not produce or license.

 

[SamJ]

Wow, this thread is still on fire!

For the record, I'm not a fan of the Fender Knockoffs and see no reason to buy them, but Ken Smith basses are not KSD, nor are any true Ken Smith basses (that I've played at least) either looked, sounded or felt like a Fender, on the other hand they are hand made in the USA works of art (even if Ken can be a bit of an grouch). "His" basses are not anywhere near in the same league as the KSD's which are cheap Asian J-bass knock-offs intended for kids and teenagers. I've just played a relatively new (used) KSD over at Griffon in Palo Alto the other day, and (no offense Ken, and I'm sure you'll take none) it was a total piece of crap... below an MIM in my book (but above a squire).

Fender rules!

There, now that I've offended everyone, I'm hitting the unsubscribe and going to bed!

 

[emils]

"Hello Ken, Brooklyn Gear here, look we got this realy good deal where we can get these J bass style copies made cheaply in Asia somwhere but in order to sell some we'd like to put a well known bass builders name on it and charge five times their value and people will buy them thinking that they are as good as basses made by the builder in question. We'll give you 10% for using your name, are you in?"

See Luchi, this is how it's done!

 

[Eric Perry]

"Hello Ken, Brooklyn Gear here, look we got this realy good deal where we can get these J bass style copies made cheaply in Asia somwhere but in order to sell some we'd like to put a well known bass builders name on it and charge five times their value and people will buy them thinking that they are as good as basses made by the builder in question. We'll give you 10% for using your name, are you in?"

 

[Brad Johnson]

What kinda sauce you want on your chalupa???

No, rather than "mea" culpa, "hea" culpa means "he is" guilty.

Get it? winkwinknudgenudge and all that sort of rubbish.

 

[morf]

Would you then expect to see KS paying 10% to Fender for selling completed basses using the terms "60's J Bass" & "70's J Bass" that are some of the most accurate Fender knock offs since the Tokai lawsuits? Ethically speaking.

I dont have to expect anything from anyone. If Fender asked him for such, then I'd find it ethically normal to do so yes.

This thread is derailling and definately going a way I dont wish to go in, I will thus leave it at that, my opinions unchanged.