Fakes?

[Luchi Luthier]

I agree, however I do find the complaints to be a bit hypocritical coming from one of the most blatant cloners on the market. I find the clones here http://www.brooklyngear.com/ksdbass.php to be much more of a rip off in my opinion and the fact that he uses '60's J Bass & '70's J Bass and not Fender to sell copies is merely a semantical hair splitting to me as these basses are clearly "designed" to be as close to a Fender as legally possible and are well past morally acceptable from a design standpoint IMHO.

If these thoughts are frightening call me a name (not directed at 69nites)

just you know, when i said i would rest, is because i appreciate very much what you have mentioned in your post. and also appreciate the advice from other members which tried to help me providing good info and feedback. i am sorry if my response sounded different.

 

[morf]

What makes these illegal?

You said essentially the same thing in a Ritter thread today. I'm curious why I can't recall you doing this in the Sadowsky or SX or Lull threads?

I agree that using Ken's name in the advertising is wrong. I agree with Tim Cole that it's odd no one seems to mind that SX does it too.

Seems to me theres is a patent on Smith basses (else why would he ask for 10% when people copy and sell his basses?) which kinda makes copying a design illegal.

If thats incorrect, which it very well might be, it does not change anything as far as I see it. The difference between a Smith copy and a Fender copy is that Leo Fender had no problem with people copying his bass designs. He was already #1 and making the big bucks anyway.

Not that Mr. Smith is not, I dont have a clue as to what his profit margin might be, but as far as I know Smith basses are handmade boutique basses, not factory made by the thousand per day. If you start buying cheap copies that takes business away from him and his income might be affected enough by that for him to be in trouble financially. This, while it may not be illegal, although I do think it is, is certainly unethical, especially when the person is asked to stop and keeps going, even after this whole thread. As far as I can see Luchi Luthier did not say he would stop copying Smith basses, only that he would stop advertising his copies with the Smith name.

If you see nothing wrong with that then thats cool, but my opinion is otherwise.

little edit: I'll just add to that that I'm in no way proning capitalism as the right way to go, nor am I condoning it. I just think that, aside from a product that is critical to today's society's progress and well being, what you create is yours and you have a right and privilege over it, especially if it is a bass design, seeing how anyone can create their own design without the need to copy others.

Point being, the only reason the man is copying smith designs is because hes not selling enough basses, and if the only way for him to make money is to copy others work, then he indeed, in my book anyway, is a fraud and a thief. And I dont mean to say those as insults, I mean to use them as per their definition in the dictionnary, to describe the actions of the very man who is using others work and selling it at bargain prices to make money.

 

[The Penguin]

just you know, when i said i would rest, is because i appreciate very much what you have mentioned in your post. and also appreciate the advice from other members which tried to help me providing good info and feedback. i am sorry if my response sounded different.

Cool, and just to be clear I'm not defending your practices, I think you've been a fraud and a thief.

One humorous example of chutzpah is often given as follows: "A boy is on trial for murdering his parents, and he begs of the judge leniency because he is an orphan."

 

[war_n_peace]

Luchi,

Could you tell the folks your age?

I had heard you were still in your teens...

Is that true?

 

[ii-v]

If you start buying cheap copies that takes business away from him and his income might be affected enough by that for him to be in trouble financially.

Is this tongue in cheek. I honestly do not believe Ken Smith has lost .01 cents to this guy. If you want a Ken Smith bass you are not searching ebay for copies costing roughly 1/8 to1/10 a Smith when finished. If you are you really were never looking for a Ken Smith imho. Ken builds a tremendous bass, perhaps in the top echelon of all electric basses. However, I feel he has called more attention to somebody that would never be put in the same breath (besides Luchi's own advertising that is) as Ken Smith had Ken himself not fired this up.

 

[john turner]

Sorry if some took it as me defying JT, that wasn't my intentions at all.

how dare you!!!!!


heh. what?

 

[morf]

If you start buying cheap copies that takes business away from him and his income might be affected enough by that for him to be in trouble financially.

Is this tongue in cheek. I honestly do not believe Ken Smith has lost .01 cents to this guy. If you want a Ken Smith bass you are not searching ebay for copies costing roughly 1/8 to1/10 a Smith when finished. If you are you really were never looking for a Ken Smith imho. Ken builds a tremendous bass, perhaps in the top echelon of all electric basses. However, I feel he has called more attention to somebody that would never be put in the same breath (besides Luchi's own advertising that is) as Ken Smith had Ken himself not fired this up.

I am talking about this in an economic "general" sense. What you said may apply to yourself, or even me, but out of all the peeps who bought a bass from Luchi that was a Smith copy maybe some thought about buying a Smith until they saw the cheap copy and decided to buy it and upgrade it instead as a cheaper solution. Point is what YOU and I think is totally irrelevant to what reality is and there is no way (or its very difficult anyhow) finding out who is right. In this case, put yourself in Ken's shoes, would you rather feel safe about getting orders knowing noone is copying your basses or if they are, giving you proper credit and income for it, or be left in the dark knowing you may be losing business in the long term? When it comes to your job, and thus, the money that puts food in your kids' mouths, you dont think twice about that kind of stuff.

Personally I rarely buy a bass because I know for sure I want this model by this luthier, and I'm not the only one working this way. Let me put it this way: if I stumble upon a Smith on eBay that Ken is selling real cheap because its an order a person refused or something, will I buy that one at a great price or prefer getting my bass custom made, waiting the time that it takes to do that, and paying the high price for it? No.

Thing is, not all bass players have money to juggle with and when the option comes to buy a bass CHEAP, they do, and thats been proven with not only wishbass and antoniotsai, but with Luchi here as well.

 

[Luchi Luthier]

Luchi,

Could you tell the folks your age?

I had heard you were still in your teens...

Is that true?

that is not correct, i have being out of my teens for a lonnng time now. mid 30's

 

[lamarjones]

If you start buying cheap copies that takes business away from him and his income might be affected enough by that for him to be in trouble financially.

I am talking about this in an economic "general" sense. What you said may apply to yourself, or even me, but out of all the peeps who bought a bass from Luchi that was a Smith copy maybe some thought about buying a Smith until they saw the cheap copy and decided to buy it and upgrade it instead as a cheaper solution. Point is what YOU and I think is totally irrelevant to what reality is and there is no way (or its very difficult anyhow) finding out who is right. In this case, put yourself in Ken's shoes, would you rather feel safe about getting orders knowing noone is copying your basses or if they are, giving you proper credit and income for it, or be left in the dark knowing you may be losing business in the long term? When it comes to your job, and thus, the money that puts food in your kids' mouths, you dont think twice about that kind of stuff.

Seriously, serves them right if they knew it was a copy. If I bought some Maui Jim clones and got pissed off cause they weren't polarized, I'd expect to be laughed at rather than compensated.

As for copying design, I'd be real surprised if Ken managed to pull off a patent on all his design for design only, do you have any idea how many different industries have suits like this, and pretty much all of them do state that design is pretty much like 'look and feel' (Window vs Apple) and is legal? Nto to say that there are not certain cases that are contrary, but not sure this is one of them, and from what you wrote, neither are you.

So seriously, Luchi joined TB, says he knows what he did and how to correct things, Ken made a good call bringing it up to TB given the response, shooting the dude repeatedly doesn't accomplish anything further to the point.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Seems to me theres is a patent on Smith basses (else why would he ask for 10% when people copy and sell his basses?) which kinda makes copying a design illegal.

Who is legally, under license, copying Smith basses?

If thats incorrect, which it very well might be, it does not change anything as far as I see it. The difference between a Smith copy and a Fender copy is that Leo Fender had no problem with people copying his bass designs. He was already #1 and making the big bucks anyway.

Really. Leo said that? Did he tell Tokai?

Not that Mr. Smith is not, I dont have a clue as to what his profit margin might be, but as far as I know Smith basses are handmade boutique basses, not factory made by the thousand per day. If you start buying cheap copies that takes business away from him and his income might be affected enough by that for him to be in trouble financially. This, while it may not be illegal, although I do think it is, is certainly unethical, especially when the person is asked to stop and keeps going, even after this whole thread. As far as I can see Luchi Luthier did not say he would stop copying Smith basses, only that he would stop advertising his copies with the Smith name.

If you see nothing wrong with that then thats cool, but my opinion is otherwise.

little edit: I'll just add to that that I'm in no way proning capitalism as the right way to go, nor am I condoning it. I just think that, aside from a product that is critical to today's society's progress and well being, what you create is yours and you have a right and privilege over it, especially if it is a bass design, seeing how anyone can create their own design without the need to copy others.

Except Fenders... they're open targets.

Point being, the only reason the man is copying smith designs is because hes not selling enough basses, and if the only way for him to make money is to copy others work, then he indeed, in my book anyway, is a fraud and a thief. And I dont mean to say those as insults, I mean to use them as per their definition in the dictionnary, to describe the actions of the very man who is using others work and selling it at bargain prices to make money.

I'm not taking side in this. I'd genuinely be interested in how you know the "only" reason he's doing anything?

 

[morf]

Seriously, serves them right if they knew it was a copy. If I bought some Maui Jim clones and got pissed off cause they weren't polarized, I'd expect to be laughed at rather than compensated.

As for copying design, I'd be real surprised if Ken managed to pull off a patent on all his design for design only, do you have any idea how many different industries have suits like this, and pretty much all of them do state that design is pretty much like 'look and feel' (Window vs Apple) and is legal? Nto to say that there are not certain cases that are contrary, but not sure this is one of them, and from what you wrote, neither are you.

So seriously, Luchi joined TB, says he knows what he did and how to correct things, Ken made a good call bringing it up to TB given the response, shooting the dude repeatedly doesn't accomplish anything further to the point.

You may be right, though I personally disagree from the ethical standpoint, I just think its pitiful for a person to copy someone else's work without permission just to make money. As for Luchi making it right, I haven't seen him give Ken the 15% he made off the sale of every bass, nor 10% at that, so in my book he made nothing right.

 

[morf]

Who is legally, under license, copying Smith basses?

Really. Leo said that? Did he tell Tokai?

Except Fenders... they're open targets.

I'm not taking side in this. I'd genuinely be interested in how you know the "only" reason he's doing anything?

Hey a smart guy. Now I wonder why you so vigorously respond to my post, could it be you also copy designs without permission?

On a more serious note and to answer you, I dont know, nor care who is copying Ken Smith basses legally. However, Ken did say he asked 10% from the sale of a bass copied from one of his designs so it seems to me there is certainly a possibility for that.

I don't know if Leo said that, but I'm pretty sure if he did mind or if Fender minded, there would be many lawsuits out there, and I haven't heard of any. I may be wrong though, and if I am please inform me.

Well lets see. For which other reason than money would you copy a bass design without permission from the original luthier? I mean if you wanted to practice you could cut out the bodies from some cheap wood and noone would complain. Can you honestly tell me a single other reason to copy and sell cheap, on eBay, advertising the instrument as an actual Ken Smith, if it wasn't to make money? Are you honestly this gullible?

 

[Eric Perry]

On a more serious note and to answer you, I dont know, nor care who is copying Ken Smith basses legally. However, Ken did say he asked 10% from the sale of a bass copied from one of his designs so it seems to me there is certainly a possibility for that.

I DON'T know the answer to this, it's simply hypothetical, but...


Does Smith pay Fender any percentage for all KSD basses that are sold that are damn near a mirror to the original Fenders???

Ooooh, sorry, I forget, the headstock is notched differently. My bad.


What I read here is "Smith is an established, successful luthier, he can't do any wrong", and "this luchi dude is some guy no one has ever even heard of, so he must be a copying scum"

I'm not saying Luchi isn't copying other's work. Never said that. So don't come at me with that angle. I'm merely pointing out he is NOT alone.

 

[morf]

If you had bothered to read my post entirely you'd not even have the need to ask this question as it is already answered there.

 

[Eric Perry]

I'm not defending nor condoning Luchi's actions. What I'm doing is trying to get people to look at both sides of a coin here.

 

[morf]

I see. And I do see both sides of the coin, but as I said this is more of an ethical matter from my viewpoint anyhow.

 

[Eric Perry]

I see. And I do see both sides of the coin, but as I said this is more of an ethical matter from my viewpoint anyhow.

Fair enough. And I do agree this is an ethical discussion. But can we pick and choose who needs to follow ethical guidelines? Shouldn't they be global?

Anywho, I gotsta go. I'll be sure and check in here later. Peace all.

 

[morf]

Like I said I believe those ethical guidelines to be global and find it unethical for sadowsky to make fender type basses, that is if they use the exact dimensions that the fender basses have. I understand perfectly however that in this world in order for a luthier to make money he will most likely need to copy at least one of fender's models so it does balance out, but in Luchi's case I believe what he did was far more unethical. You gotta rationalize here, I think there are some things like copying fender body designs (which as far as I know and until proven otherwise, aren't illegal to copy, and if there is no such thing as an 'illegal copy' of a bass design, I havent seen Leo Fender or Fender the company forbid anyone to copy them, please tell me if you have info I dont know about this) which can be overlooked, and things which can't. Luchi's ways made sure that, for me, it wouldn't be overlooked and I would never buy a bass from him.

Different strokes for different folks though

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I DON'T know the answer to this, it's simply hypothetical, but...


Does Smith pay Fender any percentage for all KSD basses that are sold that are damn near a mirror to the original Fenders???

Ooooh, sorry, I forget, the headstock is notched differently. My bad.


What I read here is "Smith is an established, successful luthier, he can't do any wrong", and "this luchi dude is some guy no one has ever even heard of, so he must be a copying scum"

I'm not saying Luchi isn't copying other's work. Never said that. So don't come at me with that angle. I'm merely pointing out he is NOT alone.

Just to clear things up here a little, Fender has a copyright/patent on the headstock only. They would like to get the body too buy no Cigar there. If they did, we could easily use our own BSR design and still make the Bass. The problem with Brazil was NEVER the copy, it was using the name Ken Smith and calling it a "Ken Smith Bass". Very few things in this business is totally new. Shapes and specs evolve from earlier examples and turn into modern classics. I have a good relationship with Fender and even sell them our Smith Strings for their distribution network. If there was a problem using the Fender designs as they are used today, just think how many known and loved brands would vanish if not altered 100% to original designs.

Brooklyn Gear does not call it a Fender. They call it a KSD with 60s or 70s styling. WAY WAY different than what you are referring to.

I cannot count how much time I have spent with this Brazillian guy, ebay and TB discussing and fighting this subject. Time is money and I have put alot of time into protecting my name with this guy.

If you don't like non-Fender brand look-a-likes, then stop buying them and boasting about them all over the place. Most of those Fenderish Basses are not even made by the name on the headstock. They are either parts Basses from various sub-contractors or a total completed import. None that I know of are called Fender except actual Fenders.

 

[war_n_peace]

Not to get sidetracked but are'nt most double basses
copies of anothers design?

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