Fakes?

[Dave]

because first, there is nothing wrong in selling a body shape as a style of it, as long of course, the name brand is not mentioned in the title of the listing, just 1 reference to the name brand is allowed in the description of the listing. second, a lot of people few confortable buying thru ebay...not that all sales come from ebay, after a few items one aquire, ebay is no longer necessary to supply the needs of each customer. Not that all basses sold are KS, actually, it is not the first style bass i get requests for... i wish it was, because i think KS basses are beautiful.. and i have designed a bass which is inspired in a KS bass, and i wish i had the talent he has to finish my basses... some of KS basses are just beautiful..

Yeah, that doesnt really answer my question. If the only time you do KS "style" basses is when your asked then they would be sold before they were built and able to be put on Ebay, which means you are building them in that style and putting them up without having a buyer already.

 

[Eric Perry]

Here's my 2 cents on the whole subject. It is wrong to use his name claiming that the instrument was made by, or licensed by Ken when it was not. I think we were clear on that, and no one is arguing that fact. As for the word spam using Ken Smith "style", that is a minor technicality rule breakage, big whoop. No different than Rondo music selling their cheap crap knock offs, with FREE FENDER PICKS just to get the word fender in the ad. Maybe if this builder raised his price by 20 bucks, and threw in a set of Ken Smith strings, poster, or whatever else he could find....it would be a clear way to beat the rule without violating it. How many of you throwing stones here own an SX? So not only do you buy instruments with their design ripped off, but it is okay for one guy to word spam, and not another?

How many of you own a fender knock off? 80% or better I am guessing. Sugar coat it all you'd like, it's the EXACT Same thing. Difference is, some of the Fender knock offs are 4-5x the price of the originals, on a design they had nothing to do with. Ken himself licensed his name to be used on an import fender knock-off line. Not that they aren't fine basses, but they are what they are.

This fella making knock offs at a reasonable price is no more wrong than any other company copying other time tested designs......headstock notched differently or not. Personally, I love project instruments and would consider putting one of these together myself. Not saying it is right, or it's wrong....but the hypocrisy here is astounding.

Lastly, our brazilian friend is also a talkbass member, and is to be treated with the same respect, and fall under the same rules as everyone else, unless I am mistaken....the insults and name calling are childish and uncalled for.

Hey Luchi, want a fair and balanced review of your work? Send me one of your choice....I will personally assemble it, set it up, and bring it to the next Bowlus bass bash for inspection and input/reviews from some of the biggest hitters on talkbass.

+1. I completely agree with Tim.

 

[Eric Perry]

Here's a sincere question... And one I would love an honest answer to...

If Ken Smith wasn't here bashing this guy (or replace Smith's name with any other established luthier: Tobias, Conklin, Sadowsky, etc., etc. etc.), would all of you still be jumping on this bandwagon?

Certainly not all of you would admit it, but I'd be willing to bet that if there wasn't an established guy here making the statement, this would receive nowhere near the attention it has.... Like the one guy, just awestruck that Ken acknowledged his post. I mean, c'mon.

"THE Ken Smith is here making an argument against some dude I never heard of, I know who I'M aligning with!!!"

No disrespect to Smith (which is why I said go ahead and swap his name with someone else's). it's interesting food for thought, no???

 

[Dave]

...

No disrespect to Smith (which is why I said go ahead and swap his name with someone else's). it's interesting food for though, no???

It really is, and I have no doubt that you are right more than people will admit. Although, I dont think peoples reaction would have been any different if one of the more well known TBer's that wasnt involved in a company like that had brought this to light and stood behind it. And I dont think the reaction would have been as great if someone less well known had brought it up. I think some of it is that we back up the people we know on disputes rather than someone we dont know as well.

I also think the point brought up by Tim is true as well. There is a very thin line between what many companies are doing with Fender designs and what has been done here. The only difference is what they are being portrayed as. Ive never seen a Fender style bass made by an individual and sold as a real Fender on the same kind of scale as this guy is doing.

 

[Moving Pictures]

Here's a sincere question... And one I would love an honest answer to...
...
If Ken Smith wasn't here bashing this guy (or replace Smith's name with any other established luthier: Tobias, Conklin, Sadowsky, etc., etc. etc.), would all of you still be jumping on this bandwagon?

Speaking only for myself, it wasn't until I checked Luchi's auctions that I took sides with Ken.

As was pointed out earlier it wasn't that they were knock-offs butthe fact that many of those auctions used wording that was not just implying, but stating plainly, that they were Ken Smith basses. That is very dishonest IMO.

If they were just knock-offs and didn't state or imply that they were Ken Smith basses then I wouldn't care and I doubt Ken would either. This is no different than what Rondo does or what Ken does now when it comes to Fender-style basses. Neither party, Ken or Rondo, state what they make is a Fender bass. In fact, if Luchi were to make Fender-style basses and state that his basses were Fenders, or even use their name in the description of the bass, I would be willing to bet that Fender would be all over him.

Tim actually mentioned one way of advertising (free Fender picks, etc) that seems to be an accepted way of getting around the issue of getting hits on a web site. If Luchi did this then again I doubt it would be an issue. The problem is the description of the bass itself.

Just my $0.02.

 

[bassbengoa]

Here's my 2 cents on the whole subject. It is wrong to use his name claiming that the instrument was made by, or licensed by Ken when it was not. I think we were clear on that, and no one is arguing that fact. As for the word spam using Ken Smith "style", that is a minor technicality rule breakage, big whoop. No different than Rondo music selling their cheap crap knock offs, with FREE FENDER PICKS just to get the word fender in the ad. Maybe if this builder raised his price by 20 bucks, and threw in a set of Ken Smith strings, poster, or whatever else he could find....it would be a clear way to beat the rule without violating it. How many of you throwing stones here own an SX? So not only do you buy instruments with their design ripped off, but it is okay for one guy to word spam, and not another?

How many of you own a fender knock off? 80% or better I am guessing. Sugar coat it all you'd like, it's the EXACT Same thing. Difference is, some of the Fender knock offs are 4-5x the price of the originals, on a design they had nothing to do with. Ken himself licensed his name to be used on an import fender knock-off line. Not that they aren't fine basses, but they are what they are.

This fella making knock offs at a reasonable price is no more wrong than any other company copying other time tested designs......headstock notched differently or not. Personally, I love project instruments and would consider putting one of these together myself. Not saying it is right, or it's wrong....but the hypocrisy here is astounding.

Lastly, our brazilian friend is also a talkbass member, and is to be treated with the same respect, and fall under the same rules as everyone else, unless I am mistaken....the insults and name calling are childish and uncalled for.

Hey Luchi, want a fair and balanced review of your work? Send me one of your choice....I will personally assemble it, set it up, and bring it to the next Bowlus bass bash for inspection and input/reviews from some of the biggest hitters on talkbass.

+1
I completely agree too. You can't use the name Ken Smith for selling your basses, but if you build basses with the same - or similar - design, I think it's fine. It's like Tim said, Sadowsky, Lakland and many other brands took the Fender design and from there, they created their own basses.
Luchi, I also think that the option Tim gave you it's a god one. Talkbass reunites a big part of the bass players around the world, so if your basses are good, as you say they're, you'll do better than you do now. If they're not, well... you had your chance to probe what you stand for.

And BTW, the rocking dudes at the beginning and ending of your posts are annoying, so PLEASE stop that

Just my contribution.

(Excuse any mistakes, I'm not that good at English )

 

[The Mule]

Here's a sincere question... And one I would love an honest answer to...

If Ken Smith wasn't here bashing this guy (or replace Smith's name with any other established luthier: Tobias, Conklin, Sadowsky, etc., etc. etc.), would all of you still be jumping on this bandwagon?

Yes, for me that has nothing to do with it. In fact, mr. Smith was on my ignore list for a long time (and I'm sure I was or still am on his ). But I'm 100% behind him (and Alembic BTW) on this one: advertising (and selling) knock-offs as the real thing is wrong.

That's the only point of his thread, nothing else. The discussion would've died if Luchi hadn't joined in the way he did: using a lot of words to say nothing and denying things we've all seen the evidence of.

 

[Luchi Luthier]

Here's my 2 cents on the whole subject. It is wrong to use his name claiming that the instrument was made by, or licensed by Ken when it was not. I think we were clear on that, and no one is arguing that fact. As for the word spam using Ken Smith "style", that is a minor technicality rule breakage, big whoop. No different than Rondo music selling their cheap crap knock offs, with FREE FENDER PICKS just to get the word fender in the ad. Maybe if this builder raised his price by 20 bucks, and threw in a set of Ken Smith strings, poster, or whatever else he could find....it would be a clear way to beat the rule without violating it. How many of you throwing stones here own an SX? So not only do you buy instruments with their design ripped off, but it is okay for one guy to word spam, and not another?

How many of you own a fender knock off? 80% or better I am guessing. Sugar coat it all you'd like, it's the EXACT Same thing. Difference is, some of the Fender knock offs are 4-5x the price of the originals, on a design they had nothing to do with. Ken himself licensed his name to be used on an import fender knock-off line. Not that they aren't fine basses, but they are what they are.

This fella making knock offs at a reasonable price is no more wrong than any other company copying other time tested designs......headstock notched differently or not. Personally, I love project instruments and would consider putting one of these together myself. Not saying it is right, or it's wrong....but the hypocrisy here is astounding.

Lastly, our brazilian friend is also a talkbass member, and is to be treated with the same respect, and fall under the same rules as everyone else, unless I am mistaken....the insults and name calling are childish and uncalled for.

Hey Luchi, want a fair and balanced review of your work? Send me one of your choice....I will personally assemble it, set it up, and bring it to the next Bowlus bass bash for inspection and input/reviews from some of the biggest hitters on talkbass.

Dear Tim, first thank you for what you said. I would be honored to send you one of my basses for yours and the others you have mentioned. And I will take your advice and opinion about my work as a chance to improve my skills as a luthier. I dont know everything, i need a lot of experience and I am 100% open to good and bad opinion and where should I improve. I think TB is a great place for info exchange and there are a lot of people here with great experience. Wish I had the chance to learn with Mr. Smith, and be half as good as he is.. even with our differences. I will produce an instrument for you, I just need a few weeks to start on it, so i can finish the orders i have to deliver. Thank you for the chance, i do appreciate it. best regards, Luchi

 

[Luchi Luthier]

+1
I completely agree too. You can't use the name Ken Smith for selling your basses, but if you build basses with the same - or similar - design, I think it's fine. It's like Tim said, Sadowsky, Lakland and many other brands took the Fender design and from there, they created their own basses.
Luchi, I also think that the option Tim gave you it's a god one. Talkbass reunites a big part of the bass players around the world, so if your basses are good, as you say they're, you'll do better than you do now. If they're not, well... you had your chance to probe what you stand for.

And BTW, the rocking dudes at the beginning and ending of your posts are annoying, so PLEASE stop that

Just my contribution.

(Excuse any mistakes, I'm not that good at English )

look at my new posts, the bass dude took a vacation..

 

[Luchi Luthier]

Here's a sincere question... And one I would love an honest answer to...

If Ken Smith wasn't here bashing this guy (or replace Smith's name with any other established luthier: Tobias, Conklin, Sadowsky, etc., etc. etc.), would all of you still be jumping on this bandwagon?

Certainly not all of you would admit it, but I'd be willing to bet that if there wasn't an established guy here making the statement, this would receive nowhere near the attention it has.... Like the one guy, just awestruck that Ken acknowledged his post. I mean, c'mon.

"THE Ken Smith is here making an argument against some dude I never heard of, I know who I'M aligning with!!!"

No disrespect to Smith (which is why I said go ahead and swap his name with someone else's). it's interesting food for thought, no???

I do agree with that..

 

[morf]

And you shouldnt. I've argued countless times about this specific topic before, wether it was about Smith, Ritter, or any other boutique bass being copied, without the luthier being here each time. It doesn't make a single difference to me wether or not the luthier is here to "back me up" as I'm not going to get anything out of it anyway. I say back me up between quotation marks because thats how you seem to interpret it, while IMHO, people like me complaining are doing most of the backing up as far as I can see.

Thinking we would remain quiet if the luthier was not in the thread is ridiculous and clearly shows your lack of judgement of people you dont, or barely, know in the first place.

If you think making illegal copies of boutique basses is not a big deal that is your right, but dont lower my opinion with your lame assumptions please.

 

[69nites]

I don't care that the bass is being copied

It appears Ken doesn't mind that it's being copied

the problem here is that it was not being represented as a copy it was being represented as the real deal.

If it was JUST keyword spaming he probably never would have gotten too much attention but he didn't start out that way. He brought himself into the spotlight by calling them Ken Smith basses when they are obvious ripoffs.

There are people out there who don't do research and may have gotten one of these basses finished it and found it to be of poor quality. They might then write a horrable reveiw of Ken Smith basses that makes potential customers weary of purchasing a REAL Ken Smith bass.

I personally would like to see anyone who wants to rip off a bass ask the luither for permission before copying but the larger issue here is the fact that he was using (and possibly hurting) the name

He's appologizing now and trying to make it seem like he isn't doing anything wrong now but to me it's too little too late. When you learn something about a person's ethics it can not be unlearned no matter how much backpedeling they do

 

[Luchi Luthier]

I don't care that the bass is being copied

It appears Ken doesn't mind that it's being copied

the problem here is that it was not being represented as a copy it was being represented as the real deal.

If it was JUST keyword spaming he probably never would have gotten too much attention but he didn't start out that way. He brought himself into the spotlight by calling them Ken Smith basses when they are obvious ripoffs.

There are people out there who don't do research and may have gotten one of these basses finished it and found it to be of poor quality. They might then write a horrable reveiw of Ken Smith basses that makes potential customers weary of purchasing a REAL Ken Smith bass.

I personally would like to see anyone who wants to rip off a bass ask the luither for permission before copying but the larger issue here is the fact that he was using (and possibly hurting) the name

He's appologizing now and trying to make it seem like he isn't doing anything wrong now but to me it's too little too late. When you learn something about a person's ethics it can not be unlearned no matter how much backpedeling they do

hi, first i have sold just 2 basses on ebay which were 100% finished, one was my own design to a guy in NY and the other was a style brand name, to a guy in TX and it was not a KS style bass. second, i am not trying to appologize. I just said he is a great builder and do awesome work, that is not an appology, but a compliment.

 

[Eric Perry]

I'd love to see some of your finished work. You seem (by the pics) to have a good grasp on woodworking. Let's see the finished projects.

 

[Luchi Luthier]

I'd love to see some of your finished work. You seem (by the pics) to have a good grasp on woodworking. Let's see the finished projects.

Dear Eric, I dont know if i can post pictures here.. if i understood right what a moderator wrote here, i cant... let me find out and i will do it.. i just dont want to break any rules of the TB agreement.. best regards, Luchi

 

[Rodent]

Hey Luchi,

Here's a little business advice for you:

You note within this discussion thread that you plan to move into improving your building skills and design bass models of your own. Excellent decision. It's now time to go forward with this plan

* part of that will be accomplished by letting this thread die. this can only happen if you cease to post further replies

* follow thru on your newly adopted idealogy and resist the temptation to keyword spam (or something even less ethical) in any advertising and/or aution you participate in

* establish yourself as a builder with integrity: let your word become golden by avoiding even the smallest hint of something that could be perceived as misleading

* establish yourself as a builder of quality: let your wood choices be only of the best woods available, all properly seasoned and acclimated, and always with the best grain orientations

* become a TB member who contributes positively to the TB community at large, establish yourself as a contributing member of the Luthier's forum, and find ways to share what you know from experience with others who are looking for solid advice from experts who know from experience

* follow the Commercial User Policy with diligence. when posting a reply or new thread, be sure to err on the conservative side rather than posting to the side of pushing the rules

* build a reputation that is so positive that the TB community will view you such that this discussion thread is the exception rather than the expected


It's a difficult task to accomplish, and it will definitely take time. Run the race, work hard, establish yourself with integrity, and EARN yourself a positive reputation.

all the best,

R

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Say the word and I can delete my first post and make it all go away..

BUT, this is the same guy that when I caught him the 3rd or 4th time using my name he told me I would need an Army to stop him.

Now he wants to be forgiven and forgotten? I don't think so! :scowl:

If he had stopped after the first time and didn't play his silly childish games with several names and accounts on Ebay and even LIE to me about them, then it would be a different ball game.

Three strikes and you're out! Why has he had 4 and 5 strikes?

 

[moro]

As was pointed out earlier it wasn't that they were knock-offs butthe fact that many of those auctions used wording that was not just implying, but stating plainly, that they were Ken Smith basses. That is very dishonest IMO.

This is my position as well. I have a pretty liberal view when it comes to IP issues (no doubt from hanging around dirty Linux hippies) and I really don't have a problem with people copying body designs. Identifying a copy as a geniune KS is just wrong, however.

I find the practice of putting brand names in the description obnoxious as well, but I could probably be convinced that there's nothing wrong with the practice.

 

[moro]

Say the word and I can delete my first post and make it all go away..

Please don't. There is a lot of good discussion here.

 

[Rodent]

Say the word and I can delete my first post and make it all go away..

BUT, this is the same guy that when I caught him the 3rd or 4th time using my name he told me I would need an Army to stop him.

Now he wants to be forgiven and forgotten? I don't think so! :scowl:

If he had stopped after the first time and didn't play his silly childish games with several names and accounts on Ebay and even LIE to me about them, then it would be a different ball game.

Three strikes and you're out! Why has he had 4 and 5 strikes?

Ken,

Definitely NOT asking you to delete this thread!!!!! The thought never even occurred to me

What I was hoping to instill is that LL put into practice what he is telling us that he is going to do - and walk with integrity and honor, CEASE to make any references to your work (or anybody elses for that matter), and establish himself with his own designs and NOT copies.

Keeping this thread open will provide a means to verify that he is walking out his words. If we catch him returning to his (hopefully) former ways, then it's time for yet another round of postings in this thread.

Sometimes having this kind of accountability helps one go forward on the difficult path of choosing to walk with integrity ... even if it effects the financial bottom line in the short term

all the best,

R