Fakes?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Not to get sidetracked but are'nt most double basses
copies of anothers design?

Amati
Klotz
Busan
Guersam

What's with the Guersam? The only refrence known is a different spelling with an N at the end, 'GuersaN'. That ia a mid-18th century FRENCH maker. Many French Basses from the 18th century look similar to English and Italian Basses. It was not until the 19th century that the French had a style they could call their own.

On the copy thing with Violin family makers, I was waiting for someone to mention it. The Fendt family (6 makers, father, 4 sons and one grandson) in London from the first half of the 19th century made many copy instruments posing as real Strads and Guarneri's. Today when you read about these makers, it tells us how great they were and how clever. Clever was that crossover word as for books writtin 100 years ago as they were still sorting out what was real and what was a Fendt, the writers Shunned the Fendts as being decieving and dishonest makers/dealers.

I currently own a Maggini model Bass by the elder Fendt and it's possible that this was made and sold as an original Italian Maggini as the top layers of red varnish over the gold is crackled and antiqued slightly. A Maggini Bass in the year 1800 would be less than 200 years old and not impossible to fake there being no picture or books yet to show the real deal. I also own a rare Bass by Samuel Gilkes also in London made in 1814. This is a Strad 'MODEL' and not a forged copy. Gilkes is remembered as one of Englands greatest makers and worked for awhile in the Shop of Willian Forster, maker to the King!. Now if the King orders a Strad or Amati model, it is a model and not a forged copy. My Bass was a copy of a Strad Cello, shape, wood and all. It is the best condition old Bass I have seen as the wood, design and workmanship are flawless from what is still original which is the top, back and 4 of the ribs. The upper ribs were replaced when the Bass was cut and re-shaped sometime about 1870-'80 as well as the neck/scroll at that time.

If you make copies, you must decieve even the best of judges or be caught soon after revealing your wares...

 

[Brad Johnson]

Hey a smart guy. Now I wonder why you so vigorously respond to my post, could it be you also copy designs without permission?

Yes, my car has fenders.

BTW I can't copy any other basses... I don't build them. In any event, if you find a Brubaker model that looks like a copy of something, let me know.

There's nothing vigorous about my response, it's basically questions I'd think anyone with common sense might ask. OTOH if there's any vigor here, it's from your much larger participation in this thread.

On a more serious note and to answer you, I dont know, nor care who is copying Ken Smith basses legally. However, Ken did say he asked 10% from the sale of a bass copied from one of his designs so it seems to me there is certainly a possibility for that.

You mean Ken wasn't kidding? He'd license someone to make copies of his basses for a 10% cut?

Are you still joking?

I don't know if Leo said that, but I'm pretty sure if he did mind or if Fender minded, there would be many lawsuits out there, and I haven't heard of any. I may be wrong though, and if I am please inform me.

Okay... you're wrong. So why did you even bother to say it?


By the logic of the Fender situation, as long as you change the headstock you can copy it. I seriously doubt Fender was okay with that ( I remember reading otherwise many times) but the law is the law and in that case ethics be damned.

This is just getting off the track of the real problem addressed by this thread... putting the Ken Smith name, not Ken Smith "style" on the auctions. I agree, that's messed up.

Well lets see. For which other reason than money would you copy a bass design without permission from the original luthier? I mean if you wanted to practice you could cut out the bodies from some cheap wood and noone would complain. Can you honestly tell me a single other reason to copy and sell cheap, on eBay, advertising the instrument as an actual Ken Smith, if it wasn't to make money? Are you honestly this gullible?

Try to pay attention to YOUR OWN WORDS

"Point being, the only reason the man is copying smith designs is because hes not selling enough basses, and if the only way for him to make money is to copy others work, then he indeed, in my book anyway, is a fraud and a thief".

Do you see a difference between "because hes not selling enough" and doing it to make money? I do.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Like I said I believe those ethical guidelines to be global and find it unethical for sadowsky to make fender type basses, that is if they use the exact dimensions that the fender basses have. I understand perfectly however that in this world in order for a luthier to make money he will most likely need to copy at least one of fender's models so it does balance out, but in Luchi's case I believe what he did was far more unethical. You gotta rationalize here, I think there are some things like copying fender body designs (which as far as I know and until proven otherwise, aren't illegal to copy, and if there is no such thing as an 'illegal copy' of a bass design, I havent seen Leo Fender or Fender the company forbid anyone to copy them, please tell me if you have info I dont know about this) which can be overlooked, and things which can't. Luchi's ways made sure that, for me, it wouldn't be overlooked and I would never buy a bass from him.

Different strokes for different folks though

Where do you get this stuff? :

"... I understand perfectly however that in this world in order for a luthier to make money he will most likely need to copy at least one of fender's models so it does balance out,

AFAIK Ken Smith was doing fine prior to the KSD basses. Mike Tobias doesn't have a Fender copy. Neither does Kevin Brubaker. Or F Bass. Or Rob Elrick. Or Jens Ritter. Or Warrior. Or any number of builders who didn't bite off Fender. It's hardly necessary.

 

[Gard]

AFAIK Ken Smith was doing fine prior to the KSD basses. Mike Tobias doesn't have a Fender copy. Neither does Kevin Brubaker. Or F Bass. Or Rob Elrick. Or Jens Ritter. Or Warrior. Or any number of builders who didn't bite off Fender. It's hardly necessary.

...coughcoughcough...

Forget someone?

...and some of 'em have no desire to copy anyone else, even if they COULD make more money doing it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

...coughcoughcough...

Forget someone?

...and some of 'em have no desire to copy anyone else, even if they COULD make more money doing it.

Gard, you know that if you squint reeeeaally, reeeaallly hard (hell, just go ahead and close 'em), SKB3007's look just like a stack knob Jazz.

Obviously... I kid. My apologies for leaving out one of the most obvious examples.

 

[Gard]

Gard, you know that if you squint reeeeaally, reeeaallly hard (hell, just go ahead and close 'em), SKB3007's look just like a stack knob Jazz.

Obviously... I kid. My apologies for leaving out one of the most obvious examples.

Hey, no offense taken, and you're right, Keith was really just trying to nail down that whole J vibe with the SKB's, particularly the 7 strings...that whole extended range thing was entirely to be a smoke screen and keep anyone from noticing....



...speaking of stealing, we were admiring someone's whiteburst finish the other day...

 

[The Penguin]

I'm not defending nor condoning Luchi's actions. What I'm doing is trying to get people to look at both sides of a coin here.

Good luck with that

Many people seem to think that if they can find fault in one party then any opposing party is therefore ipso facto pure as the driven snow. To me this is a fight between a small time cloner and a big time cloner, neither have any moral high ground as both sell copies without the blessing of the designers. Luchi knows he's been busted and is lying about what he's done, KS knows what he is doing and is trying to distance himself in this thread from basses sold as Ken Smith Basses, I suspect he'll delete this thread soon now that a few people are pointing out the inconsistency.

 

[The Penguin]

I see. And I do see both sides of the coin, but as I said this is more of an ethical matter from my viewpoint anyhow.

Would you then expect to see KS paying 10% to Fender for selling completed basses using the terms "60's J Bass" & "70's J Bass" that are some of the most accurate Fender knock offs since the Tokai lawsuits? Ethically speaking.

 

[Luchi Luthier]

Would you then expect to see KS paying 10% to Fender for selling completed basses using the terms "60's J Bass" & "70's J Bass" that are some of the most accurate Fender knock offs since the Tokai lawsuits? Ethically speaking.

i like you.. even if you dont like me.... regards. Luchi

 

[The Mule]

If you don't like non-Fender brand look-a-likes, then stop buying them and boasting about them all over the place. Most of those Fenderish Basses are not even made by the name on the headstock. They are either parts Basses from various sub-contractors or a total completed import.

 

[The Penguin]

i like you.. even if you dont like me.... regards. Luchi

I didn't say I didn't like you, just that I see you as a liar and a thief in your eBay auctions. We could still hang out and have a few beers The same ethics works both ways, KS ripping off Fender does not make you ripping off KS any less wrong. On the other hand I do appreciate you admitting selling your stuff as KS is wrong.

 

[Headroom]

Would you then expect to see KS paying 10% to Fender for selling completed basses using the terms "60's J Bass" & "70's J Bass" that are some of the most accurate Fender knock offs since the Tokai lawsuits? Ethically speaking.

If a company is not using the folowing terms, then no, I would not:

Fender®, Jazz Bass®, P Bass®, & Precision Bass® are registered trademarks of Fender Musical Instruments Corp.

 

[The Penguin]

I don't think he was knocking other builders but talking about the ones with his name on them that he claims to have nothing to do with the making or selling of

 

[Brad Johnson]

Hey, no offense taken, and you're right, Keith was really just trying to nail down that whole J vibe with the SKB's, particularly the 7 strings...that whole extended range thing was entirely to be a smoke screen and keep anyone from noticing....



...speaking of stealing, we were admiring someone's whiteburst finish the other day...

Leo Fender introduced the whiteburst finishes back in 1948, shortly after he created Wal basses (a little known fact). In that regard, on Kevin's behalf I plead "hea culpa".

 

[Gard]

Leo Fender introduced the whiteburst finishes back in 1948, shortly after he created Wal basses (a little known fact). In that regard, on Kevin's behalf I plead "hea culpa".

What kinda sauce you want on your chalupa???

 

[The Penguin]

If a company is not using the following terms, then no, I would not:

Fender®, Jazz Bass®, P Bass®, & Precision Bass® are registered trademarks of Fender Musical Instruments Corp.

Your examples are pretty clear, however Warmoth pays and they don't use the Fender name except to show they paid royalties, try selling that headstock shape no matter what term you use and Fender will be all over you.

I agree that using the KS name on the knock offs is clearly fraud. The post I was responding to said that royalties should be paid for using the design and not the trademark, so I asked if that ideal should apply across the board as I believe they should. Some earlier justifications for the imbalance in ethics were that so many people have ripped off Fender already that they are fair game.

KS himself has said he would simply change the body shape if sued, why not change it now if he knows it's not his design and he is concerned about this kind of thing in others and demanding a piece of the action? Is it because he's making money selling the Fender design and prefers making more money with someone else's design than less money with his own? That what it appears like to me.

 

[Obese Chess]

Hey Luchi,

Would you like me to post some of the pretty pictures of the strat and tele bodies that you sold myself and my friends a few years ago, the ones with the wrong sized and out of square neck routs, the cracks from the wood being green and the shipping damage because you used no padding at all in the boxes. While some of your wood may have been nice, the routing was not as you advertised and a lot of your product was not worth using, more trouble than it was worth. This was back before you started to steal other people's names as far as I know.

For myself, I will go to bat for Ken Smith right here and now. He has been nothing but helpful to me, not just with the product I have purchased from him, which was exactly as advertised, but also with personal advice regarding playing technique.

Nothing that I purchased from you Mr. Luchi, was as you advertised and I know others who have had the same experience.

All I can speak from is my personal experience.

Regards,
S

I dunno if they've been posted yet, but I'd love to see these photos!!!

 

[Obese Chess]

Somebody said "respect", I hope he studies meaning of this word.

Well, I said "respect" before this got REALLY out of hand.
And I retracted the "respect" when it DID get out of hand

PS: THESE ARE STILL TOTALLY UNNECESSARY, LUCHI

 

[Obese Chess]

Here's a sincere question... And one I would love an honest answer to...

If Ken Smith wasn't here bashing this guy (or replace Smith's name with any other established luthier: Tobias, Conklin, Sadowsky, etc., etc. etc.), would all of you still be jumping on this bandwagon?

Certainly not all of you would admit it, but I'd be willing to bet that if there wasn't an established guy here making the statement, this would receive nowhere near the attention it has.... Like the one guy, just awestruck that Ken acknowledged his post. I mean, c'mon.

"THE Ken Smith is here making an argument against some dude I never heard of, I know who I'M aligning with!!!"

No disrespect to Smith (which is why I said go ahead and swap his name with someone else's). it's interesting food for thought, no???

HAHAHAHA!!!

I was bashing him before Ken acknowledged me.
I'm the son of a copyright lawyer, what can you expect?

The only thing people should be bashing this guy for is that he was selling basses as "Ken Smith", "Alembic", and "Fodera". Not "Ken Smith-Style", "Alembic-Style", and "Fodera-Style".

The reason most of us have no problems with buying Fender-style knockoffs is that they are not advertised as FENDER BASSES. That was my problem, the false advertising.

 

[Obese Chess]

Oh, and the "HAHAHA" was me laughing at myself, not you!
Don't worry!
You make a good point