Double Bass Fascinating..

[Andy Mopley]

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I am wondering, from a player's perspective, and a DB one at that, what/who you consider to be a good conductor and why?

Regards to all

 

[jallenbass]

Some have really great and clear baton technique like my former college housemate and Boston Pops conductor, Keith Lockhart. He was very easy to follow. There are others who have rather unorthodox conducting technique and I found them very easy to follow as well but I couldn't tell you why. They would just do some gesture and the whole orchestra was right there with them. Then there are those who are doing everything "correctly" but couldn't convey their intentions to orchestra.

 

[David Potts]

I've played for all sorts. I guess this is another reason why experience counts. Theoretically the tip of the baton dictates the beat but in reality it may be the hand, elbow (eyebrow, left ear!!!). You quickly are told if you are wrong because the music stops and you go back to try again. When everyone spots which part of the anatomy to follow we all get on famously. I measure a conductor's success or failure by the ability to start, stop and turn the corners in the music. This does not absolve the responsibility of each musician to have listening and watching antennae out in all directions. It is at the corners when placing of our (bass) exits and entries (especially pizzicatos) that the skill of a conductor is revealed, also their temperament.

However, a conductor once said that conducting an orchestra is like trying to take an octopus for a walk on a rubber band. So be patient.

 

[csrund]

...a conductor once said that conducting an orchestra is like trying to take an octopus for a walk on a rubber band. So be patient.

I remember in my first (and only) conducting class nearly 30 years ago, the sensation of placing the beat and feeling the slight delay as the ensemble reacts and collectively "agrees" on their interpretation of your gesture was completely disorienting the first time I experienced it. The only analogy I could ever think of is the sensation of speaking into an announcer's microphone in a large stadium and hearing your own voice echoed back to you with a slight lag. Major sensory confusion! If you watch European orchestras, it appears that the players are accustomed to placing the notes well after the conductor's gesture, which I think would make me exceedingly crazy if I were the one on the podium.

The thing I learned from that little sliver of an experience is that, as a conductor, you need to keep mentally pushing ahead and keep being the leader. If you start reacting to the ensemble, the tail starts wagging the dog, and the music loses its energy and shape—like that octopus on a rubber band.

Last spring, our orchestra had its first rehearsal with our new music director (a former Bernstein student). Just a few bars into rehearsal, she took a moment to very explicitly tell us how she places the beat and how she wants the ensemble to anticipate the placement and arrive with her together at the moment. I thought that was very astute and thoughtful of her to communicate that to us, and it had an immediate effect on the ensemble. From that early moment onward, we were able to focus on making music together. Our first full season with her starts this fall, and I can't wait.

 

[Andy Mopley]

True. It is important to note that what we're seeing as the beat might not be what the conductor is demonstrating.
Some conductors hit the beat when their hand comes down, some do in between on the up motion, and some do it when their hand flings up. So while it might look like the conductor is late, one could simply be looking at the wrong conducting movements, hence a conductor that takes the time to explain is a good idea.

 

[Phil Rowan]

Here's a documentary ("The Art of Conducting") that offers a really fascinating look into conducting. Lots of different conducting styles via some of the greats (with segments in which they reflect on each other's conducting styles), with some great, old footage of them conducting their respective orchestras:


Unrelated, but there's another great doc called "The Art of Piano" that's equally fascinating from a musicianship standpoint.

 

[Phil Rowan]

Last spring, our orchestra had its first rehearsal with our new music director (a former Bernstein student). Just a few bars into rehearsal, she took a moment to very explicitly tell us how she places the beat and how she wants the ensemble to anticipate the placement and arrive with her together at the moment. I thought that was very astute and thoughtful of her to communicate that to us, and it had an immediate effect on the ensemble. From that early moment onward, we were able to focus on making music together. Our first full season with her starts this fall, and I can't wait.

This hasn't really been mentioned, but I'm sure everyone that's posted would agree, but one of the things that determines whether or not I'm into a conductor is their ability to communicate what they want from us and the music in a way that's clear, succinct, and allows us to achieve their vision. When this dovetails with a clear conducting style that helps different instrumental sections with beats, entrances, phrasing, etc., it makes the whole experience much smoother, almost like the music is playing itself since everyone is on board with the conductor (and each other).

 

[Mark_T]

I really enjoyed reading Ed Barker's thoughts on styles of conducting as articulated in this Invalid Link Removed:

"We’ve worked with a lot of great conductors and every conductor has their own style, sometimes complete opposites of each other. Some conductors are very physical and intuitive in terms of the way they use their bodies and conduct their beat patterns. They can be very graceful. They don’t really say much when they conduct, showing it all with their hands, and they achieve fantastic results. We have had other conductors who have very minimal beats that don’t show much, and they tend to talk through rehearsals communicating some very sophisticated concepts. Often they attain great results too but for entirely different technical reasons. When a conductor’s beat is very small it forces us to listen to one another very closely with what I call “big ears,” and the balance in the ensemble actually is quite good as a result even though there’s not necessarily much physical information coming from the conductor. On the other hand conductors with very expressive beats who physically show a lot can be very beneficial because the orchestra doesn’t have as much mental work to do, and it is a little easier to play under those circumstances."​

I was just thinking about this after having gone to a concert where the conductor gave a very small beat, and to my eye largely did not interact with the orchestra to either give cues or to really shape the sound. In my opinion, the music was really carried by the artistry of the musicians in the orchestra - in some cases, that worked because the musicians were highly trained and effective, and in some cases they could have benefitted from some direction.

 

[mcnaire2004]

Anyone who has a coherent idea of the music and is able to communicate that to the orchestra whether they like him or not. Someone who can raise money and works hard with PR as a local public figure to fill the seats... a fundraiser.

Plenty of ideas but it doesn't matter the genius if you can't communicate your idea. We all want a guy with either certain technique, or who gives certain freedom, or who has this or that idea of music. We all want folks to leave us alone or recognize us... whatever. A conductor isn't much different than any other coalition builder (a politician just about).

 

[Andy Mopley]

So then, how is the responsibility shared, when a performance goes pear shaped? Is it equal? There was a time seemingly mid 19th century where a conductor was a sort of despot/tyrant, with musicians essentially having no voice of their own, and conductors were never seen as at fault. Now days, to your point, mcnaire2004, and given the short stints by some conductors, (if not 1 off guest appearances) it is even more incumbent on conductors to establish a relationship with the players quickly and efficiently. How that coalition is built, though, determines the measure of success.

 

[csrund]

...mid 19th century where a conductor was a sort of despot/tyrant...

My teacher, Murray Grodner, played under both Toscanini and Reiner, who were both tops in the "tyrant" category. Professor Grodner said that most of the players were able to shake off Toscanini's vitriol like water off a duck's back, and that it was part of the cost of having a strong leader on the podium and achieving excellence as an ensemble. He also said that those types of conductors will never be seen again, because the union won't tolerate it anymore.

In case you haven't heard this before, I'll post it just for kicks—it's a rehearsal recording where Toscanini repeatedly excoriates the bass section:




Compared with some of the boorish behavior in pro sports and pop music nowadays, Toscanini's outbursts seem almost quaint.

 

[Andy Mopley]

"Compared with some of boorish behavior in pro sports and pop music nowadays, Toscanini's outbursts seem almost quaint."

100%!! But I agree, would be hard today to have a conductor get away with similar language.