I could be wrong(wouldn't be the first time), but it seems more like he is suggesting that his cabs have the displacement to run 30hz at gig volume, with enough power and EQ... he mentioned EQ on multiple occasion, I don't think he has claimed how far down it is as 30hz, simply that with enough power and EQ power, it can run that low at gig volume.
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fEARless F212: New cab design from greenboy!
- Thread starter CL400Peavey
- Start date
- Nov 24, 2008
- 4,343
- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Imo there's a vast difference between "doesn't fart out" and "useful". And I seriously doubt he's claiming you can EQ the cab so that it really is useful at 30 Hz because that's well below the tuning frequency.
I'm sure most people would like to give Alex the benefit of the doubt because he's a nice guy and knowledgeable and helpful. But he's also measuring his own cabs with a very optimistic yardstick.
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Chef
In Memoriam
As this answers a direct question, yes, it's allowed.
If this turns into another vendor slugfest I have to wade in here and moderate, repeatedly, I promise it'll end badly for everyone.
- Nov 24, 2008
- 4,343
- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Understood, and this will be my last post in this thread.
I don't think a manufacturer should be able to tout the "pretty big difference in performance" that his new custom woofers make without having the specifics of his performance claims examined and called into question if they do not add up. And relatively few people on this site are in a position to challenge Alex Claber, so if that was going to happen, it pretty much had to be done by a fellow manufacturer.
I've got a great Vendor Slugfest bootleg from before they made it big.
I think that all Duke is saying is that as manufacturers (greenboy guys included) we need to have a consistent language and " yardstick" to describe our products. I'm not at all saying that Alex is wrong or dishonest. It's just that if our measurements and technical information is not based upon agreed parameters that it indeed creates an uneven playing field.
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I'm not saying that we have to go that far. And I think that is about drivers specifically. I'm just saying that certain descriptions can be misleading. The f212---which I'm sure kicks some serious low end butt---i don't think that Greenboy would ever describe it has having a usable frequency response to 30hz. And I'm sure it has GREAT bass extension. So if a typical bass player is looking at specs to buy a cab and see's that one says 30hz--where it's likely minus 16db and another cab with the same frequency response claims a -3db point of say 45hz---and claims that as the useable low frequency limit---the bass player is not going to know what these specs represent. And he'll likely buy the one that says 30hz.
Sorry---I won't say anything more---I don't mean to derail things.
Let's get back to the f212---one of the best cabs on the planet!
This could be said for any of cabs made by greenboy, Audiokinesis, barefaced, or Mike Arnopol.
Really could be splitting hairs here folks.
This stuff is all so far beyond what was available a decade ago.
Its just a great time to be a bass player.
Great performance in so many different flavors.
Ya - and it should include not just unsubstantiated claims of "magic" drivers - but also claims of "magic" cabs that defy small room acoustics... just saying.
BTW if loving me some physics makes me a GB guy then sign me up - as long as I get to hat-tip DukeLeJeune as being the nicest guy on the internet when it come to helping folks build and understand speaker cabs - again, just saying - cause I admire him so much as a great human being who reaches out to help - especially when there is nothing in it for him. So my $0.02 - when he asks a tough question we should all listen - he earned that much respect no matter whichever little camp of TB cab lover you dwell.
Yeah, that is as aggressive as I've ever seen Duke, and it wasn't even really that aggressive. 
Like the rest of us peons, bass gear manufactures are still subject to the absolute restrictions of the laws of physics. While I too am curious about how Barefaced qualifies their performance claims, I am also waiting for empirical proof of the claims surrounding MVW technology.
Frankly, the recent discussion about the accuracy of bass enclosure specifications should not be discouraged or shut down. Rather, it would be better for the bass community if all manufacturers were publicly encouraged to be honest and forthright about the performance of their bass enclosures, including providing detailed explanations of their measurement techniques. What would be most beneficial for bassists seeking new gear is reliable, reproducible, industry standard, measurements.
Frankly, the recent discussion about the accuracy of bass enclosure specifications should not be discouraged or shut down. Rather, it would be better for the bass community if all manufacturers were publicly encouraged to be honest and forthright about the performance of their bass enclosures, including providing detailed explanations of their measurement techniques. What would be most beneficial for bassists seeking new gear is reliable, reproducible, industry standard, measurements.
I agree 100%. A problem is that it is incredibly expensive to accurately measure the lowest 2 1/2 octaves. Which is the area that most affects our function.Only a few facilities can reliably do so. Which is why 90% of the low end graphs you see are modeled. Not actual. And if we're doing our own measuring of said region there is no agreed upon standard. Ground plane, true half plane---and one thing I agree with Alex on---at a power level that relates more closely to actual conditions.
There's a hell of a lot to figure out and agree to. I think it would be well worth it for bass speaker manufacturers to agree on how we state performance data and to come to an agreement as to how we measure. And how we interpret that data. It would create a more level playing field and give useful performance data to the players. ---keep us honest and keep upping our game.
There's a hell of a lot to figure out and agree to. I think it would be well worth it for bass speaker manufacturers to agree on how we state performance data and to come to an agreement as to how we measure. And how we interpret that data. It would create a more level playing field and give useful performance data to the players. ---keep us honest and keep upping our game.
Just to be clear, my main point was that I think that the recent discussion between manufacturers on how they determine their specifications is just the sort of exchange of information that should be encouraged, as it helps to educate potential customers.
From the look of their last few posts, it seemed that Duke and Alex were walking away from the thread; that is unfortunate, IMO. Rather, as long as it remains civil, technical discussion which serves to clarify loudspeaker specifications and measurement techniques is highly beneficial and should be promoted, not discouraged.
From the look of their last few posts, it seemed that Duke and Alex were walking away from the thread; that is unfortunate, IMO. Rather, as long as it remains civil, technical discussion which serves to clarify loudspeaker specifications and measurement techniques is highly beneficial and should be promoted, not discouraged.
lelandcrooks
Commercial User
Riiiight. The majors with marketing departments are going to go right for that.
I have swampland in florida for sale.
(had to poke you Mike)
Im not one to squash a technical discussion, but I think that is for a different thread.
Back on topic.
Real world experience with the cab confirming power handling: I played a gig with my Classic 400 pushed well in to break up through my F212. Guitard wandered out of bounds on to my side of the stage. His response: "Its not about hearing the bass, or feeling it.... I could see the bass!" It was loud enough to rattle his head that much.
Back on topic.
Real world experience with the cab confirming power handling: I played a gig with my Classic 400 pushed well in to break up through my F212. Guitard wandered out of bounds on to my side of the stage. His response: "Its not about hearing the bass, or feeling it.... I could see the bass!" It was loud enough to rattle his head that much.
From The AES Standards Committee, " The AESSC provides the mechanism for competing interests to gather, cooperate and create audio standards, while avoiding any legal issues. " Is'nt this what you all are after ?
"Its not about hearing the bass, or feeling it.... I could see the bass!" It was loud enough to rattle his head that much.
THAT'S a cool quote!
Interesting how some who get so worked up about having ultra low frequencies in one thread get worked up about taking them away in others (Fdeck HPF Pre).
The F212 sounds like a cool cab to me. But it's more weight than I want to move around. The F210 and F110 are enough for me and my gigs. If I need more there's always a PA to plug into. The great thing is there's something for everyone's needs thanks to the work of Greenboy, Duke, Alex, etc. GREAT time to be a bass player!
The F212 sounds like a cool cab to me. But it's more weight than I want to move around. The F210 and F110 are enough for me and my gigs. If I need more there's always a PA to plug into. The great thing is there's something for everyone's needs thanks to the work of Greenboy, Duke, Alex, etc. GREAT time to be a bass player!
I leave my fDeck set at 35 hz most of the time. That is well below usable frequencies, and I cut there or maybe a little higher depending on the room to protect speakers. My goal is to have a lot of content from ~46hz to 100hz or so, and the greenboy cabs do that in spades before they hit their roll off point. Most commercial cabs hit that roll off point a LOT higher, and in my experience end up sounding muddy when you push them to try and reproduce content below that point.
