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Fender American Vintage vs Custom Shop

#21
pacojas said:
@Bassgod,... the CS Pino is PHENOMENAL!!!

that said, i love my AV62RI Jazz, BUT....

the CS64RELIC is on my "Bucket List"!:hyper:
Click to expand...

Agree my 64 relic time machine is really all that + (insert your brand) bag of chips. Btw the pups sound much different than the 'custom shop' pups that fender is putting on the new american standards and the aftermarket ones. More bright and less hot on the 64 cs as compared to the aftermarket replacements.
 
#24
pbass888 said:
Agree my 64 relic time machine is really all that + (insert your brand) bag of chips. Btw the pups sound much different than the 'custom shop' pups that fender is putting on the new american standards and the aftermarket ones. More bright and less hot on the 64 cs as compared to the aftermarket replacements.
Click to expand...

That's because your 64 most likely has the AVRI 62 pickups as stock (I had to replace one recently, the part number they gave me was for the 62 pickup, I questioned it and was told that is what is used as the stock pickup).
 
#25
mr.mow said:
That's because your 64 most likely has the AVRI 62 pickups as stock (I had to replace one recently, the part number they gave me was for the 62 pickup, I questioned it and was told that is what is used as the stock pickup).
Click to expand...

Actually they do not, at least according to my call to the cs last month. I called the cs in order get the specs on my base since i bought it second hand. My old 62 avri jazz was a little brighter and thinner sound both recording and live, a bit different in sound to a vintage jazz in my opinion. Not bad, but different. I prefer the actual cs 64 , then duncan vintage and finally the 62 avri pups in that order, but purely in rankng for a vintage jazz tone. Im surprised they gave mr. Mow that part number , as my cs pups also a have a different coloration on the bottom and different casing. But compared to my "newer" jazzes , a 1996 and a kallas with duncan vintage,and a recently sold 62 avri , the cs 64 time machines are wound much less in terms of resis. Mine measured in the high 6k range on both bridge and neck pup. Mellower but lovely tone. The ca pup was conveyed from the cs directly.

Unfortunately the avri jazzes that I have owned were not good ones as both had neck issues.


Here are the specs from fender

Model Name: '64 Jazz Bass® Relic®
Model Number: 015-1500-(Color #)
Series: Time MachineTM
Body: Select Alder
Neck: Maple, "C" Shape,
(Nitrocellulose Lacquer Finish)
Fingerboard: Round Laminate Rosewood, 7.25" Radius (184 mm)
No. of Frets: 20 Vintage Style Frets
Scale Length: 34" (864 mm)
Width @ Nut: 1.50" (38mm)

Hardware: Nickel/Chrome
Machine Heads: Vintage Style Reverse Machine Heads
Bridge: American Vintage Jazz Bass
Pickguard: 4-Ply Tortoise Shell
Pickups: 2 Vintage Jazz Bass Single-Coil Pickups
Pickup Switching: None
Controls: Volume 1. (Neck Pickup),
Volume 2. (Bridge Pickup),
Master Tone
Colors: (800) 3-Color Sunburst,
(Nitrocellulose Lacquer Finish)
Strings: Fender Super Bass 7250ML, NPS,
Gauges: (.045, .065, .080, .100),
P/N 073-7250-005
 

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#26
shrimpflea said:
Not at all, back in the day it was assembly line all the way....low paid workers churning out the product for maximum profit, it was not a small team of custom builders by any means. That's the way Leo set it up....necks and bodies were thrown together, there was no concern for creating a custom made instrument with select woods and the attention to detail that you see now with custom shop models. All those revered old Fender basses were essentially parts basses made quickly to fill orders and keep the business going. Yes things got ramped up after CBS took over but that was more about quality control than anything else....it was still basically the same production method.
Click to expand...

We were comparing the TM instruments to the old Fenders, don't confuse the issue. Of course the production was assembly line, but the machines were very simple and took a certain amount of skill. If you've ever played a few real ones you might have been lucky to come across some wonderful necks.

There was no reason to select woods, they came to the factory pretty much in excellent quality, aged properly and lightweight, stuff luthiers kill for these days.

Custom colours, by the '60's neck widths, and other exceptional appointments were possible, all from the regular factory. That's more than you can even get on the TM instruments now.

In any case, the AV and the CS TM instruments are not that far apart in he things that affect tone and playability, and I do think that like with most all Fenders it depends on the instrument.

But the overall finish, the look of the woods, the neck shapes, and often the weight make for noticeable differences between the two, and the way the nitro finishes look and age are different, too.
 
#27
pbass888 said:
Actually they do not, at least according to my call to the cs last month. I called the cs in order get the specs on my base since i bought it second hand. My old 62 avri jazz was a little brighter and thinner sound both recording and live, a bit different in sound to a vintage jazz in my opinion. Not bad, but different. I prefer the actual cs 64 , then duncan vintage and finally the 62 avri pups in that order, but purely in rankng for a vintage jazz tone. Im surprised they gave mr. Mow that part number , as my cs pups also a have a different coloration on the bottom and different casing. But compared to my "newer" jazzes , a 1996 and a kallas with duncan vintage,and a recently sold 62 avri , the cs 64 time machines are wound much less in terms of resis. Mine measured in the high 6k range on both bridge and neck pup. Mellower but lovely tone. The ca pup was conveyed from the cs directly.

Unfortunately the avri jazzes that I have owned were not good ones as both had neck issues.


Here are the specs from fender

Model Name: '64 Jazz Bass® Relic®
Model Number: 015-1500-(Color #)
Series: Time MachineTM
Body: Select Alder
Neck: Maple, "C" Shape,
(Nitrocellulose Lacquer Finish)
Fingerboard: Round Laminate Rosewood, 7.25" Radius (184 mm)
No. of Frets: 20 Vintage Style Frets
Scale Length: 34" (864 mm)
Width @ Nut: 1.50" (38mm)

Hardware: Nickel/Chrome
Machine Heads: Vintage Style Reverse Machine Heads
Bridge: American Vintage Jazz Bass
Pickguard: 4-Ply Tortoise Shell
Pickups: 2 Vintage Jazz Bass Single-Coil Pickups
Pickup Switching: None
Controls: Volume 1. (Neck Pickup),
Volume 2. (Bridge Pickup),
Master Tone
Colors: (800) 3-Color Sunburst,
(Nitrocellulose Lacquer Finish)
Strings: Fender Super Bass 7250ML, NPS,
Gauges: (.045, .065, .080, .100),
P/N 073-7250-005
Click to expand...


Well, considering I have a 2 month old 64 cs jazz which developed a faulty pickup, considering I got a copy of the floor construction sheet for my bass which is an off the shelf stock 64 which shows the pickup part numbers as AVRI jazz pickups (you can specify anything but the stock ones are this) and considering I spoke directly to mike eldred to confirm this was the case..


Yes they do..

Here is part of the spec sheet for mine. A bog standard 64

RHYTHM VINT J BASS 0020906000 NONE NONE LEAD VINT J-BASS 0020908000

Look up those part numbers..
 
#28
mr.mow said:
Well, considering I have a 2 month old 64 cs jazz which developed a faulty pickup, considering I got a copy of the floor construction sheet for my bass which is an off the shelf stock 64 which shows the pickup part numbers as AVRI jazz pickups (you can specify anything but the stock ones are this) and considering I spoke directly to mike eldred to confirm this was the case..

Yes they do..
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, i did talk with Mike as well.. But i was told different. ....Mine is a 64 relic time machine discontinued in 2010 according to mike but I doubt that makes a difference.some how after reading your part no's i feel a little sad given my experience with my 2 avri jazzes ....
 
#29
pbass888 said:
Thanks for the info, i did talk with Mike as well.. But i was told different. ....Mine is a 64 relic time machine discontinued in 2010 according to mike but I doubt that makes a difference.some how after reading your part no's i feel a little sad given my experience with my 2 avri jazzes ....
Click to expand...

Ok, yours having been bought used means it could have been specced with anything, being a 2010, maybe they did have different pickups then.. But if you buy or order a base model stock standard 64.. You get ARVI pickups, which if anything speaks volumes about the quality of this pickup, I didn't know (or care) what it was until it died and I had to replace it, it sounds great, the bass plays great and it has that beautiful thin nitro finish, that and the 1/4 sawn neck are worth the extra for me.
 
#30
mr.mow said:
Ok, yours having been bought used means it could have been specced with anything, being a 2010, maybe they did have different pickups then.. But if you buy or order a base model stock standard 64.. You get ARVI pickups, which if anything speaks volumes about the quality of this pickup, I didn't know (or care) what it was until it died and I had to replace it, it sounds great, the bass plays great and it has that beautiful thin nitro finish, that and the 1/4 sawn neck are worth the extra for me.
Click to expand...

Yes if something happened to mine, I would order one new in a heartbeat to replace it. The neck finish on mine is reliced where the nitro is worn in compared to my avri,and no neck issue as of yet. I also think,as i remember, that this cs finish is lighter nitro than my avris. I am sorry to hear that your pup died and thanks again for the info.
 
#31
pbass888 said:
Yes if something happened to mine, I would order one new in a heartbeat to replace it. The neck finish on mine is reliced where the nitro is worn in compared to my avri,and no neck issue as of yet. I also think,as i remember, that this cs finish is lighter nitro than my avris. I am sorry to hear that your pup died and thanks again for the info.
Click to expand...

I have a vague recollection that in 2009/2010 they did an LTD time machine relic in 3 tone sunburst or black, maybe it's one of them, they probably did have different pickups being a special run. That's the thing, they change it round all the time, when I asked for a replacement pickup I had to supply the serial to make sure it was correct.

As for my faulty pickup, lucky it's only a $40 part :) imagine if it was special wound or a fralin/lollar.. Big bucks!

I find it amusing the jazz pickup I love so much is one of the cheapest!
 
#32
One Drop said:
In any case, the AV and the CS TM instruments are not that far apart in he things that affect tone and playability, and I do think that like with most all Fenders it depends on the instrument.

But the overall finish, the look of the woods, the neck shapes, and often the weight make for noticeable differences between the two, and the way the nitro finishes look and age are different, too.
Click to expand...

I agree completely.

The shop I bought my AVRI from had a used '59 Closet Classic listed online for not much more. Unfortunately, I went in the next day and it was gone. When I finally got my hands on a '59 Closet Classic at another store, I was even sadder because the woods and finish was much better than the AVRI I just bought, though it didn't play much if any differently aside from the gently worn in finish on the neck.

You could get the AVRI and have the body refin'd to the quality of a CS and still be ahead. I don't know how the resale would be affected. I suppose it would depend on the desirability of the color and if there were prospective buyers who would pay a premium for it when you were looking to sell.
 
#33
It think it's worth a mention now that finishes are being discussed, that apparently the AVRIs are now getting thinner nitro coats. My new Jazz already has point through to the wood, and the finish is paper thin, with very little poly undercoat from what I can see. My older AVRI has a way thicker finish on it, and I was rather surprised at how thin the newer finishes are.
 
#34
mr.mow said:
Well, considering I have a 2 month old 64 cs jazz which developed a faulty pickup, considering I got a copy of the floor construction sheet for my bass which is an off the shelf stock 64 which shows the pickup part numbers as AVRI jazz pickups (you can specify anything but the stock ones are this) and considering I spoke directly to mike eldred to confirm this was the case..


Yes they do..

Here is part of the spec sheet for mine. A bog standard 64

RHYTHM VINT J BASS 0020906000 NONE NONE LEAD VINT J-BASS 0020908000

Look up those part numbers..
Click to expand...


Most of the TM basses had the Vintage PUPs as stock exactly the same as on the AVs, it was always written clearly on Fender's specs meant for the public, so no shenanigans. The Custom Shop pickups were aftermarket, and have a slightly different tone, not better or worse to my ears. I think they are slightly overwound with the magnets and bobbins being the same, but I'm just guessing here.

The Vintage ones are great PUPs, and nail the vintage tone as well as any others I've heard, many costing a lot more.
 
#35
I really think their masterbuilt pricing goes beyond the boundaries of "reasonable." It's too bad that for some of the simplest options for a CS build, they force you to choose the masterbuilt option for an additional $2600.

An "I want the simplest 60s jazz you can bother with that doesn't weight a lot" would go for $4900(base price) + $4200, just for mentioning the weight.
 
#36
One Drop said:
We were comparing the TM instruments to the old Fenders, don't confuse the issue. Of course the production was assembly line, but the machines were very simple and took a certain amount of skill. If you've ever played a few real ones you might have been lucky to come across some wonderful necks.

There was no reason to select woods, they came to the factory pretty much in excellent quality, aged properly and lightweight, stuff luthiers kill for these days.

Custom colours, by the '60's neck widths, and other exceptional appointments were possible, all from the regular factory. That's more than you can even get on the TM instruments now.

In any case, the AV and the CS TM instruments are not that far apart in he things that affect tone and playability, and I do think that like with most all Fenders it depends on the instrument.

But the overall finish, the look of the woods, the neck shapes, and often the weight make for noticeable differences between the two, and the way the nitro finishes look and age are different, too.
Click to expand...

I have played some pre-CBS Fenders....a few were amazing some were so-so, but I get your point, the machining and materials were different back then and there was and still is skill involved in building a bass, assembly line or not...and yes you could order some custom appointments back then...but I honestly don't think there's that big a difference between the early Fenders and the more current AV models:hiding: ...and I know many would argue that the Fullerton RI's are more accurate to the originals. I have 2 AV reissues that I love....I've played a few custom shop Fenders that were wonderful. If I had the cash I would seriously consider buying a CS Fender.
 
#38
I haven't played the '64. I can tell you the '62 has concentric knobs and the '64 doesn't. I do have the '74 AVRI, and it is a very fine bass, and a faithful recreation of the real deal (down to the hefty weight).
 
#39
from what I read the 62 has more paint/coats than the 64. beyond that and the stacked knobs/coverplates, there is little difference. People seem to covet the '62s more , judging by the pricing. I'd say buy a used CS over any AVRI but that's just me.
 
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