Fender Marketing Propaganda?

[atquinn]

If you are looking for concise, sober posts, please ignore the majority of what I say around here.

I did manage to slip in a link to the OPs for sale thread, so I hope he will forgive me for my irreverent comments.

I liked your comment. Maybe it wasn't informative, but it was definitely in the spirit of the OP lol!

 

[Honkey tonk]

A stacked coil with only one magnetic pole direction can be just as noiseless as a split coil. Both magnet polarity and coil polarity affect the phase of the musical signal, while only coil polarity affects the phase of the hum signal. Mains hum is picked up by the coil and not the magnet and the mains hum is usually fairly similar regardless of coil position (to a reasonable degree anyway, ideally the two coils are on the same plane and close proximity), so having two equivalent coils out of phase with each-other is all it takes to cancel that hum out. So the reason a side-by-side humbucker also has to have reversed magnet polarity as well as reversed coil polarity is that both of the coils in this orientation are also picking up the same strings in equal measure, so if you only reversed the coil phase you would be putting both the hum AND string signal out of phase resulting in a super thin sound. In a Precision pickup it actually isn't necessary to have reversed magnet polarity for humcancelling purposes as the two coils aren't sensing the same strings, so it wouldn't matter that the string signals from each are out of phase with each-other (a traditional Mustang split-coil looks like a Precision pickup but actually uses two magnetically identical coils wired out of phase with each-other and is still equally humbucking).

The main "issue" with a typical stacked coil humbucker is that the bottom coil does pick up some signal from the string that is out of phase with the top coil (in this case full-frequency since they are picking up the same part of the string), so the total output is decreased vs comparable other types of humbuckers or single coils. Both a side-by-side and split-coil humbucker will usually have a noticeably higher output everything else being equal, sometimes split-coils are even lower output than single coils. Stacked coils can also be brighter than both (unless compensated for), which can result in thinner sound.

Stacked coils make the most sense in a guitar for thin pickup routes like Strat/Tele because split-coils on a guitar often exhibit some out-of-phase behavior on the two middle strings due to the tighter string spacing (read reviews about the discontinued Super 55 Strat pickups), but I feel like bassists generally seem to favor the tone and output allowed by a split-coil design in small form-factors (not sure why Fender discontinued the Super 55 Jazz Bass split-coil humbuckers, as they were really nice- perhaps the guitar pickups with the same name ruined the line). I haven't tried this current generation of Fender noiseless stacked Jazz coils, but experiences with past designs sounded relatively weak/thin to me. Hopefully they've improved things!

Pickup Magnetic Polarity and Phase – Planet Z
View attachment 5095427

 

[Honkey tonk]

 

[sunbeast]

View attachment 5095427

This chart is incorrect (#4 and #8 are both humcancelling while being out of phase), and in the comments on his blog post multiple people explain why (I believe the “David” commenting is actually David from SGD pickups of infamy around here). “Hum” that humbuckers decrease is electromagnetic interference from outside the pickup, induced into the coil by external magnetic forces- the polarity of the magnets on the pickup has zero effect on this hum or its phase, in fact if you removed the magnets from a pickup entirely the coil(s) would still pick up hum exactly the same. Dummy coils work based on this idea- a coil with no magnets whatsoever simply there to phase out shared hum signal.

Indeed it’s common to have a Strat or Tele for example with mixed pickups from different manufacturers (seemingly mixing Seymour Duncan with just about anything else for one!) with different standards on which pickups should be north polarity and south polarity, resulting in pickup mixes which will be both out of phase and humbucking (which is what the coils of a stacked coil humbucker are). That’s an unfortunate situation to find as it means the pickups have identical magnet polarity and would require flipping the magnets to fix (which isn’t always an option). With a stacked coil the out of phase condition isn’t as much of a problem apart from the output change it causes as mentioned in my last post, with different pickups at different positions along the string it causes comb filtering of shared harmonic nodes.

Here is a picture that shows the correct combinations:

 

[atquinn]

Bumping my own thread to provide some additional information.

I take back all the bad things I said about Fender's Marketing department as the split P in the Ultra is definitely NOT a regular split P pickup!

If you take a look at the last page of the service manual, you will see crazy measurements for the split P pickup.
https://www.fmicassets.com/Damroot/...01XXXX_Ultra_Precision_Bass_REV_3_30_2020.pdf

I had previously measured the resistances on the pickups and thought maybe the preamp was why I was getting wacky numbers, but the numbers in the service manual are in alignment with what I measured. The bridge jazz is the usual noiseless jazz, but with the split P, it's like each half is an independent 2-coil humbucker and then the two halves are run in series. Totally different from the split P in the Elite Precision, which is just a typical split P. (https://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/32270-FenderAmericanElitePrecisionBassServiceManual.pdf)

Interesting stuff.

 

[sunbeast]

Bumping my own thread to provide some additional information.

I take back all the bad things I said about Fender's Marketing department as the split P in the Ultra is definitely NOT a regular split P pickup!

If you take a look at the last page of the service manual, you will see crazy measurements for the split P pickup.
https://www.fmicassets.com/Damroot/...01XXXX_Ultra_Precision_Bass_REV_3_30_2020.pdf

I had previously measured the resistances on the pickups and thought maybe the preamp was why I was getting wacky numbers, but the numbers in the service manual are in alignment with what I measured. The bridge jazz is the usual noiseless jazz, but with the split P, it's like each half is an independent 2-coil humbucker and then the two halves are run in series. Totally different from the split P in the Elite Precision, which is just a typical split P. (https://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/32270-FenderAmericanElitePrecisionBassServiceManual.pdf)

Interesting stuff.

Have you tried removing the pickup covers to verify? This is an interesting design choice if you are right!

 

[atquinn]

Have you tried removing the pickup covers to verify? This is an interesting design choice if you are right!

I haven't yet. I'm assuming everything is all gummed up and impenetrable and the covers can't actually be removed. I'll probably take a look at some point though.

 

[sunbeast]

I haven't yet. I'm assuming everything is all gummed up and impenetrable and the covers can't actually be removed. I'll probably take a look at some point though.

What is the resistance measure of the full pickup out of circuit?

 

[atquinn]

Looks like it is as I guessed, 2 stacked humbuckers in series with each other. Seems like a lot of work. Wonder how much quieter they are than, say the regular split Ps in the Elites?

 

[sunbeast]

Looks like it is as I guessed, 2 stacked humbuckers in series with each other. Seems like a lot of work. Wonder how much quieter they are than, say the regular split Ps in the Elites?
View attachment 5109624

That is surprising and also kinda cool. I wouldn't expect them to be much quieter than a typical P, although there might be some argument that having the two reversed coils on the same plane like that might be slightly better for some noise rejection- the problem with that is you are also losing some string signal output in the process (as the bottom coil would be excited somewhat by the strings and in reverse phase to the main coil it would cancel out some output) so the SNR ratio would go down as well. I'd guess they could have a lower output than a typical P design that might match better with the output of the bridge J though (usually people put super overwound pickups in trying to match output in a PJ and end up losing alot of character in the process).

I'll have to try one of these basses next time I see one in a store out of curiousity!

 

[atquinn]

That is surprising and also kinda cool. I wouldn't expect them to be much quieter than a typical P, although there might be some argument that having the two reversed coils on the same plane like that might be slightly better for some noise rejection- the problem with that is you are also losing some string signal output in the process (as the bottom coil would be excited somewhat by the strings and in reverse phase to the main coil it would cancel out some output) so the SNR ratio would go down as well. I'd guess they could have a lower output than a typical P design that might match better with the output of the bridge J though (usually people put super overwound pickups in trying to match output in a PJ and end up losing alot of character in the process).

I'll have to try one of these basses next time I see one in a store out of curiousity!

It is just as you say. The split P on the Ultra is noticeably lower out put the the split Ps in the Pro II and Tony Franklin. However, strangely, fender made the jazz pickup hotter than the Jazz pickup in the Elites. It is louder than hell. Sounds great, but not balanced at all with the split P. So if you are using the jazz for solos it act like a built in solo boost, but if you want to from playing rhythm on the neck to the bridge, you would have to turn down. Quite different from, say, the Tony Franklin where both pickups are balanced.

 

[Nebadon2000]

A look at the whole system here:

USA Fender Ultra P Bass LOADED PICKGUARD Precision Active Noiseless Tortoise | Reverb

There is New looking Ultra P pickup where underside looks like Jazz pickup in picture[2nd in slide]

Mine [2019] needed replacement in 2021 and looked different from original more like Jazz [Blue, Poles flush, pickup incased can't see stacked coils and no cooper tape]

 

[Nebadon2000]

It is just as you say. The split P on the Ultra is noticeably lower out put the the split Ps in the Pro II and Tony Franklin. However, strangely, fender made the jazz pickup hotter than the Jazz pickup in the Elites. It is louder than hell. Sounds great, but not balanced at all with the split P. So if you are using the jazz for solos it act like a built in solo boost, but if you want to from playing rhythm on the neck to the bridge, you would have to turn down. Quite different from, say, the Tony Franklin where both pickups are balanced.

I found balanced sounded slightly better in full blend and used pickup height adjustment so perceived volume was equal full P, Full J and Full Blend.