Yes I owned one of the earlier burgundy mist 60's mexican jazz basses (with the matching headstock). The '09 60's mexican basses sell for around $800.00. Is the road worn finish worth $450.00 more?? Still for about $200.00 more you can have a '09 US standard with a case. You don't have to get mad...it's just a forum discussing the value and quality of a certain bass model and trying to reason and justify the cost. I am a big Fender fan. When making an investment in an instrument in today's market I think it's important to look at all the options. i.e will the bass hold it's value (true value), what accessories are included etc, etc. Unfortunately a lot of young beginning players get taken advantage of by music stores..and hopefully this forum will make them and their parents better educated !
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Fender MIM road worn 60' J bass
- Thread starter SanDiegoHarry
- Start date
Yes I owned one of the earlier burgundy mist 60's mexican jazz basses (with the matching headstock). The '09 60's mexican basses sell for around $800.00. Is the road worn finish worth $450.00 more?? Still for about $200.00 more you can have a '09 US standard with a case. You don't have to get mad...it's just a forum discussing the value and quality of a certain bass model and trying to reason and justify the cost. I am a big Fender fan. When making an investment in an instrument in today's market I think it's important to look at all the options. i.e will the bass hold it's value (true value), what accessories are included etc, etc. Unfortunately a lot of young beginning players get taken advantage of by music stores..and hopefully this forum will make them and their parents better educated !
That's the sticking point. I've used the G&L metal flake finish as an example multiple times and I will here, too. This finish upgrade runs $400 from G&L. It runs the same (or more) from other shops that do refinishing. Why? More work is involved. It's a messier process with more clean up and different tooling...according to a guy I contacted about a quote for an old bass.
I see the Road Worn finish as the same thing. There is obviously more involved that just a point and spray job. I'd be interested to know exactly how it is done, but I think we can all agree that it is more time consuming (and thus costly) than the regiular finishes.
I'm not mad; it seems others are, however, about a bass, to the point of name-calling. For a while now, many people have commented on the quality of the Japanese offerings vs the US. Recently, the MIM 50's P and 60's J have gotten really good reviews, as well.
Too many people are stuck on the MIM vs MIA thing and making the assumption that one MUST be of lower quality due to origin of manufacture (Fender can thank itself for that). To me, the location means squat. I'm concerned about the quality and I believe that a quality product can be made in Mexico as easily as a crap product can be made in the US. OK, it takes less effort to churn out crap, but you get the idea.
I haven't picked up enough or spent enough time with those I have played to say how favorably the 50's P compares to the US counterparts, so I'll defer to the preponderance of the opinions here on that. With those reviews in mind and accepting that the finish cost more to do than a regular one...I just don't have a problem with Fender charging that much for a MIM bass, much less feel like labeling those that buy one. Sorry.
Agreed. When's our next meeting?
Mike
Yes the G & L metalflake finish is more, but that is a limited edition custom finish on a US bass. (limited numbers) We are talking simply about production basses here Mexican Fender $600. 60's Mexican $800, Mexican road worn $1,200, US Standard $1,400. The consumer will have to ask themselves what features, playabilty, accessories, resell value do those models have? Where they are made will probably most affect resell but not maybe so much the other factors. (i.e Lakland US and Skyline.). Sometimes I just don't understand the price breakdowns from manufacturers...Funny thing the majority of the Japanese Fenders are priced below the Road worn mexicans..i.e Geddy Lee ???
That finish is limited only by the number of people who order it. They have limited edition basses (spalted top, for example), but this finish isn't one of them. To be fair, though, G&L is set up differently than Fender and have something like 35 available finishes with about half of them offered at "standard". My point is that some finishes cost more and the reason the Road Wear is one of them is obvious to me.
I understand that will be a turnoff for a lot of people, bu tit breaks down to priorities (as you stated), with playability being a big one in this case. Supposedly the nitro/worn finish is more comfortable for some. Those players have to decide how much that is worth.
The bottom line is that some people simply see these as "beat up Mexican basses", either being unable or without bothering to assess the possibility that it might still be a very well made bass, with quality parts, that might play better (for some) and they feel the need to mock those that might see what they can't.
Mike
Jim Carr
Dr. Jim
- Jan 21, 2006
- 16,223
- 7,614
- 76
- Disclosures
- fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
+1
Mike, I agree with your points.
I also think that for the guys who don't care for artificial relics, we need to acknowledge the humor and sincerity in calling Road Worn basses "Cloneworn," "totally cringeworthy," "Machine Worn," etc. I snickered, too.
The following are also sincere comments, but I wonder if they don't reveal deeper secret desires and hidden fear? I suspect that most people actually would love to have a bass that was a cool looking relic, and the idea that now just any "noob" can go buy one threatens the understandably sacred value of such an instrument to us.
This suggests how much many of us desire to have a relic. We all want to be cool--and aren't most of us are really just "posing as cool" when we play? The stars are totally posing--it's a show, often seen on TV--and that's where we all learned it when we were very young. It's now part of who we are. It's OK, we have no choice, it is our culture.
Below is my supporting evidence for "secret desires." I am not criticizing the posters of these comments. I sympathize and I am citing them because I think they reveal the intense desire by experienced bassists to have a relic, to be cool, and the fear of being derided if seen playing an artificially relic'd instrument. They also fear the self-criticism/guilt that might follow such a step.
...pretend[ing] that you're a bigtime bassist...
...for the most part, noobs who don't want to wait to earn their stripes...
...Poser heaven... ...reeks of poser...
...this whole idea of making new basses look like old ones...[is] desperately stupid...
...if someone is going to wear out my axe, it best be me or the players who had it before me - not some machine...
...I will chain them to the back of my car and make them all nice and road worn. You will look so cool!...
...I wouldn't [even] pay $1200 for a US made Fender, unless it was actually old...
...for those that like the look of a vintage instrument and can't be bothered to find one the "Road Worn" series may seem pretty cool...
...Relic basses remind me of cheap costume jewelry, trying to imitate the real thing...they look fake...
...falls in line with the instant gratification that so many want these days...
IMHO, these comments in part reveal a desire to have a relic, and a fear that if it is not totally genuine, they will be accused of--or even be guilty of cheating/posing/faking. This shows how sincere and serious many of us are about what we do. Yet, allow me to suggest that one would not be cheating by owning and playing an artificially relic'd bass.
Here is why: You probaby won't live long enough to sufficiently wear your bass into relic form anything like '60s nitro finished Fenders that lived through the hey-day of live bar music in America between 1965 and 1985.
It just can't happen. Those days of gigging 5 nights a week, week after week after week in sweaty smokey bars, are frankly gone. The National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 required all states to raise their minimum purchase and public possession of alcohol age to 21. The lively bar scene, that had used live Rock as a draw, had gotten sick from disco, and then due to Federal Law, finally died. Since the drinking age is still no longer 18, and our culture now looks down on the kind of hedonism we thought was our due in 1968, things won't go back to that "golden era" for a long long time, if ever. Consider this: I was making the equivalent in 2008 US dollars of $2500 a week off the books in the early 70s as a bass player, starting age 21. Really.
Furthermore, even today's pros on the road who work many nights a year have several instruments, and these are mostly all finished in very durable poly-urethane, or are survivors of the "golden era."
So, if you have a nitro finish on your one main player, and if you are gigging 100+ nights a year, yes, you too will own a relic in about 10 years. Otherwise, you are buying somebody else's wear, and it might be made by man or machine.
It is OK. Things have changed. Relics celebrate a mythic period in American musical culture. That period now inspires and even sustains us. We should be glad to have had it and seek to hold on to its true musical and artistic glories. An artificial relic, made by hand or by machine is a tribute to that era, a lost youth that a few of us had, but most of us will have only in our imaginations. That imagining is not posing, it is a sacred state of allowing ourselves to be who we want to be as we create music.
The price issue will be settled by the marketplace.
Mike, I agree with your points.
I also think that for the guys who don't care for artificial relics, we need to acknowledge the humor and sincerity in calling Road Worn basses "Cloneworn," "totally cringeworthy," "Machine Worn," etc. I snickered, too.
The following are also sincere comments, but I wonder if they don't reveal deeper secret desires and hidden fear? I suspect that most people actually would love to have a bass that was a cool looking relic, and the idea that now just any "noob" can go buy one threatens the understandably sacred value of such an instrument to us.
This suggests how much many of us desire to have a relic. We all want to be cool--and aren't most of us are really just "posing as cool" when we play? The stars are totally posing--it's a show, often seen on TV--and that's where we all learned it when we were very young. It's now part of who we are. It's OK, we have no choice, it is our culture.
Below is my supporting evidence for "secret desires." I am not criticizing the posters of these comments. I sympathize and I am citing them because I think they reveal the intense desire by experienced bassists to have a relic, to be cool, and the fear of being derided if seen playing an artificially relic'd instrument. They also fear the self-criticism/guilt that might follow such a step.
...pretend[ing] that you're a bigtime bassist...
...for the most part, noobs who don't want to wait to earn their stripes...
...Poser heaven... ...reeks of poser...
...this whole idea of making new basses look like old ones...[is] desperately stupid...
...if someone is going to wear out my axe, it best be me or the players who had it before me - not some machine...
...I will chain them to the back of my car and make them all nice and road worn. You will look so cool!...
...I wouldn't [even] pay $1200 for a US made Fender, unless it was actually old...
...for those that like the look of a vintage instrument and can't be bothered to find one the "Road Worn" series may seem pretty cool...
...Relic basses remind me of cheap costume jewelry, trying to imitate the real thing...they look fake...
...falls in line with the instant gratification that so many want these days...
IMHO, these comments in part reveal a desire to have a relic, and a fear that if it is not totally genuine, they will be accused of--or even be guilty of cheating/posing/faking. This shows how sincere and serious many of us are about what we do. Yet, allow me to suggest that one would not be cheating by owning and playing an artificially relic'd bass.
Here is why: You probaby won't live long enough to sufficiently wear your bass into relic form anything like '60s nitro finished Fenders that lived through the hey-day of live bar music in America between 1965 and 1985.
It just can't happen. Those days of gigging 5 nights a week, week after week after week in sweaty smokey bars, are frankly gone. The National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 required all states to raise their minimum purchase and public possession of alcohol age to 21. The lively bar scene, that had used live Rock as a draw, had gotten sick from disco, and then due to Federal Law, finally died. Since the drinking age is still no longer 18, and our culture now looks down on the kind of hedonism we thought was our due in 1968, things won't go back to that "golden era" for a long long time, if ever. Consider this: I was making the equivalent in 2008 US dollars of $2500 a week off the books in the early 70s as a bass player, starting age 21. Really.
Furthermore, even today's pros on the road who work many nights a year have several instruments, and these are mostly all finished in very durable poly-urethane, or are survivors of the "golden era."
So, if you have a nitro finish on your one main player, and if you are gigging 100+ nights a year, yes, you too will own a relic in about 10 years. Otherwise, you are buying somebody else's wear, and it might be made by man or machine.
It is OK. Things have changed. Relics celebrate a mythic period in American musical culture. That period now inspires and even sustains us. We should be glad to have had it and seek to hold on to its true musical and artistic glories. An artificial relic, made by hand or by machine is a tribute to that era, a lost youth that a few of us had, but most of us will have only in our imaginations. That imagining is not posing, it is a sacred state of allowing ourselves to be who we want to be as we create music.
The price issue will be settled by the marketplace.
heh... on and on it goes...
I have two 'road worn' basses... a '61 Jazz and a '77 Stingray... I'll reserve judgement on these new old ones until I get to play one. They seem a bit pricey to me that's all.
I have two 'road worn' basses... a '61 Jazz and a '77 Stingray... I'll reserve judgement on these new old ones until I get to play one. They seem a bit pricey to me that's all.
I thought this was a forum discussing basses and making music. I didn't know it was going to be Psychiatry 101 by Dr. Freud. "Secret desires of why people really want a relic"
Hey your missing the point Fender is a business out to make money...are their different models worth the asking price? That's how "simple" it is.
Hey your missing the point Fender is a business out to make money...are their different models worth the asking price? That's how "simple" it is.
I thought exactly the same thing the first time the mob grabbed their pitchforks and torches and started screaming "poser". Two way street.
Mike
Are the Fender Road Worn series basses worth the money? Are they reasonably priced? I can't say for sure, but ESP has a couple of reliced bass models on the market (been out longer than the Fender Road Worn series) and they charge $1399 USD, last time I looked. Fender Road Worn basses may be competing with the ESP and/or other brands currently on the market or slated to be on the market in the future.
I agreed with with person who replied with the picture of the "man beating the dead horse". If you see a "mob" in this thread with "pitchforks" and "torches" I must of missed that.
My comment is simply "Are they worth the asking price"? Vote either Yes or vote No. Sales are based on the number of people that say yes and no to a product. I say/vote no to the asking price. End of story.......
I voted No to the RW P bass I played. The bass was too heavy, the neck was too fat, the finish was sticky, and the price was too high even priced at less than $1000. That fact that it sounded good couldn't make up for all that. It's not hard to find other good sounding instruments without those issues.
I would vote no to any bass with those strikes against it, finish notwithstanding.
Weight and neck size are personal preferences that vary from person to person. The tacky feel of the finish is a common occurance with Nitrocellulose finishes. Usually, a thorough buffing is all that is needed to eliminate the sticky feel on the neck and/or body of the instrument.
Again, two way street. I've been reading the same "poser" comments since December.
I think I've already expounded on the "worth", how fluid it can be across a user base and how little one person's worth will affect another's. I tried to vote, though, but couldn't find a poll.
I wish it were.
Mike
Exactly on the weight and neck size. I said I would say no to any bass with those issues.
Buffing is the Catch 22 of this relic finish since it's apparent that it gets a lot of it's look from not being buffed much if at all. Buffing to remove the stickiness of the nitro would ruin the effect.
With the Road Worn bass, buffing wouldn't be likely to create a high gloss shine, but it would eliminate the sticky feel, especially on the neck. It is a "new" finish even though it looks aged.
Jim Carr
Dr. Jim
- Jan 21, 2006
- 16,223
- 7,614
- 76
- Disclosures
- fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
Please note the last bit in my rather long post above. The market place will settle the price issue, IMHO. The success of Fender's Road Worn pricing will be determined by how well those basses sell in current economic conditions.
I know you don't like the artificial relic finish thing, and I respect that. I am wondering why so many people in the last half-dozen threads on this topic, including this one, have had such emotional reactions to these finishes. I hope we hear your ideas on that.
IMHO, a discussion of relic finishes on Fender basses and why people want/don't want them is about basses. Wouldn't you agree?
I wonder if you have any thoughts on why the younger ones here think relics (real or cloneworn) look cool, despite the fact that it is pretty obvious younger players haven't been around long enough to have worn in an instrument very much by playing--discounting any deliberate abuse? Are there that many "heros" using them?
Then I guess the question is, why didn't Fender just buff it? The body of my HWY1 P (also a flat finish nitro) wasn't sticky. I wonder if the relic finish would shine up just like the HWY1 does when buffed?
Jim Carr
Dr. Jim
- Jan 21, 2006
- 16,223
- 7,614
- 76
- Disclosures
- fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
I think this thread is about the sound, quality, cost, and aesthetic appeal of the new Fender Road worn basses. These issues were all raised by the OP when he played a bass at GT in San Diego, IIRC. hmmmm....let's see, oh yeah, here it is:
