Fender tone stack sound.

[Drop1]

I went down the rabbit hole a bit last night reading about the fender tone stack.

I found a interesting bit about the lows and highs being offset in time.

This, if I understand correctly, causes shifting where the frequencies overlap causing a "shimmer". Can't say I've ever noticed this in an amp, but I was never listening for it either. I know a lot of amps use the fender stack, but I'm not sure if I've ever owned one that used it.

What are some commen brands I could maybe go play at Gc to hear this. I assume the fender rumbles, but any other GC common amps or combos like mark bass or ampeg? Do the genz shuttles use a fender stack?

I assume someone somewhere down the line has tried to play with the timing offset or maybe even made it adjustable. (It may be fixed, i dont know, thats an agedhorse question).

I'm tempted to mimic this in the computer. Anyone know the low vs high frequency roll off points and slopes and how much delay there is between the 2?

I'm curious what this would sound like on a known clean system.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

Play around with the knobs at the bottom left for an understanding on how the knobs interact with each other.
For more fun there are other eq types to play with in this link also.
Guitarscience.net/EQ interactions/TSC in the web

 

[agedhorse]

Unfortunately, the rabbit hole that you went down is full of false and misleading information.

The lows and highs are not "offset in time" any differently than for ANY eq filter with that EQ curve. There is a misnomer about time offset however because this is not really true. There is a phase difference which varies by the frequency and the amount of cut/boost, but in reality with regards to absolute time we are talking about tiny amounts in the time domain.

The Fender tone stack is just a set of filters that happen to interact and be voiced in a way that worked particularly well with electric guitars of that era, and since the guitars didn't change much over the years, the filter set still works well today.

The Shuttles do not use the Fender tonestack, the Rumbles don't either except in an internal fixed voicing mode, the conventional eq controls use a Baxandall topology. The Subway TT-800's Boogie channel uses a modified Fender tonestack with extended midrange control. The WD-800 uses some elements of the Fender tonestack in the fixed mid eq function, but the bass/treble is Baxandall.

The original Fender tonestack isn't the greatest for bass guitar, it's highly voiced for electric guitar.

 

[jasper383]

The Hartke LH heads and combos use the Fender tone stack, IIRC. They sound great. A big and open clean sound reminiscent of the Fender sound.

All knobs at noon is quite scooped, but a very pleasing sound. "Flat" is bass and treble off, mids maxxed.

 

[WG Plum]

Probably not an answer to your questions, but in use (in my experience) mids maxed, bass and trebled zeroed is flat. At least that's how it works with Broughton Fender tone stack pedals and DIs.

 

[Wasnex]

I learned to play through a blackface era Fender Twin Reverb. The basic tone feels sort of like home to me. I currently have an early silverface Dual Showman Reverb TFL5000D. This amp is pretty much a Twin in a head format.

Closest bass amp in my collection to the sound of the old Fenders is my Orange AD200B. max out the Master and it sounds and responds very, very similarly. It has a tonestack that is built with exactly the same architecture as the Fender three band. The values of components are bit different, but the overall voicing and feel is still very Fendery IMHO.

Here is a fairly accurate preamp schematic I found:

The tone stacks in many of my amps are based on Fender's design. Examples include Trace Elliot V-types, various Ashdown tube amps, Mesa D180, 400, and 400+, Aguilar DB359, Sadowsky SA200, Marshall VBA 400, etc. Many of these amps fall into what I call the Fender tone universe, but they are not as close to the center as the AD200B. Some of them don't sound Fendery at all.


Probably the most unFendery is my Ashdown CTM300. The component values were chosen so the controls or more interactive than on vintage Fender amps. AFAIK, this increases the variety of sounds the amp can produce, but also makes the controls behave in a less intuitive manner. Also the CTM300 tone stack includes extra components that can be selected using push buttons. These buttons change the voicing. One of the buttons also reduces attenuation through the tone stack...you might perceive it as increasing gain or drive.. The lows and low mids of the CTM300 remind my a lot of my Ampeg SVTs.

CTM300 Tonestack

If you want to play around with a basic Fender tone stack, try this model: TSC in the web (guitarscience.net) See how the controls work and also try changing component values to see how it changes the voicing. Keep in mind that different vintage Fenders used different component values...meaning they did not all sound and respond exactly the same.


Note: Some solid state preamps use a tone stack architecture that is fairly close to the vintage Fender three band. Music Man hybrids is one example. I believe some of the Hartke heads also fall into this category.

 

[Drop1]

Unfortunately, the rabbit hole that you went down is full of false and misleading information.

The lows and highs are not "offset in time" any differently than for ANY eq filter with that EQ curve. There is a misnomer about time offset however because this is not really true. There is a phase difference which varies by the frequency and the amount of cut/boost, but in reality with regards to absolute time we are talking about tiny amounts in the time domain.

The Fender tone stack is just a set of filters that happen to interact and be voiced in a way that worked particularly well with electric guitars of that era, and since the guitars didn't change much over the years, the filter set still works well today.

The Shuttles do not use the Fender tonestack, the Rumbles don't either except in an internal fixed voicing mode, the conventional eq controls use a Baxandall topology. The Subway TT-800's Boogie channel uses a modified Fender tonestack with extended midrange control. The WD-800 uses some elements of the Fender tonestack in the fixed mid eq function, but the bass/treble is Baxandall.

The original Fender tonestack isn't the greatest for bass guitar, it's highly voiced for electric guitar.

Thanks for clarifying.
I just thought it interesting.
I'll often split bass and treble on a recording for processing and I know the filter choices I use have an effect on phase when mixed back together, but I'm usually not thinking about it in that way (unless it creates a problem)
I do sometimes use time for stereo fx or nudging parts forward or backward, I just never even considered using time to shift frequencies in that way.
I'll still try it in the box, maybe there are some cool textures to be had there, but thanks for not letting me waste my time going to GC.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Phase issues are a form of distortion. Amps have many sources of distortion. How hard you drive them is a factor. They are what they are and contribute to the baked in tone. Phase and time alignment can be fixed in the digital domain of a DAW if desired.

James (1949) and later Baxandall (1952) got it so right many years ago. Their intent wasn’t for guitar amps, it was more for hi-fi. A digital model: https://aes2.org/publications/elibrary-page/?id=16959. Nobody would have imagined that back then.

The tilt control is simple and effective in some applications. The single knob raise the bass, lower the treble, lower the bass, raise the treble about a center frequency. A step up over the single tone control found in early amp designs.

 

[logdrum]

Phase issues are a form of distortion. Amps have many sources of distortion. How hard you drive them is a factor. They are what they are and contribute to the baked in tone. Phase and time alignment can be fixed in the digital domain of a DAW if desired.

James (1949) and later Baxandall (1952) got it so right many years ago. Their intent wasn’t for guitar amps, it was more for hi-fi. A digital model: https://aes2.org/publications/elibrary-page/?id=16959. Nobody would have imagined that back then.

The tilt control is simple and effective in some applications. The single knob raise the bass, lower the treble, lower the bass, raise the treble about a center frequency. A step up over the single tone control found in early amp designs.

Did not know the history. Thanks. I though James and Baxandall were one and the same.

And every time I read your post, I get a slice of Sourdough or seed bread, toast lightly , dab with butter or olive oil and get some beans and maybe some aged cheddar and toast some more using an oven toaster. Of course West Coast and Southwest fusion could mean more hippie toppings and I've gone overboard.

The classic way of course was white bread and Hunt's baked beans at least in the US

 

[Jeff Scott]

I went down the rabbit hole a bit last night reading about the fender tone stack.

I found a interesting bit about the lows and highs being offset in time.

So, you're saying that the Fender tone stack is a practical application of Einstein's Theory of Relativity?

 

[agedhorse]

Did not know the history. Thanks. I though James and Baxandall were one and the same.

And every time I read your post, I get a slice of Sourdough or seed bread, toast lightly , dab with butter or olive oil and get some beans and maybe some aged cheddar and toast some more using an oven toaster. Of course West Coast and Southwest fusion could mean more hippie toppings and I've gone overboard.

The classic way of course was white bread and Hunt's baked beans at least in the US

Van Camps?

 

[DuluthDank]

I plugged in my new Orange Terror bass at rehearsal, and played a song with the band. I immediately realized that I wanted to boost the mids, and that the limitations of the Fender tone stack meant I couldn't do that. That was the last time I used it with band, and I would never consider buying any product with a Fender tone stack. I get it somewhat for guitar, but with bass I'm scratching my head as to the appeal. There must be some huge sonic benefit I don't understand, such that a person would accept such significant limitations.

 

[agedhorse]

I plugged in my new Orange Terror bass at rehearsal, and played a song with the band. I immediately realized that I wanted to boost the mids, and that the limitations of the Fender tone stack meant I couldn't do that. That was the last time I used it with band, and I would never consider buying any product with a Fender tone stack. I get it somewhat for guitar, but with bass I'm scratching my head as to the appeal. There must be some huge sonic benefit I don't understand, such that a person would accept such significant limitations.

There are different implementations and interpretations of the "Fender tone stack", which is an architecture rather than specific values. Even Fender has different implementations.

 

[bftbassman]

The Fender tone stack is killer for guitar

 

[Wasnex]

but with bass I'm scratching my head as to the appeal.

It's as simple as this. Some people like it and some people don't.

While a Fender tone stack generally can't boost the mids, they can usually be adjusted to avoid an overly scooped response.

Considering how many iconic bass amps use this architecture, I don't see it as fair to proclaim "It's not good for bass." Each person should feel free to judge for themself.

 

[DuluthDank]

It's as simple as this. Some people like it and some people don't.

While a Fender tone stack generally can't boost the mids, they can usually be adjusted to avoid an overly scooped response.

Considering how many iconic bass amps use this architecture, I don't see it as fair to proclaim "It's not good for bass." Each person should feel free to judge for themself.

Yes, and I judged for myself. Nothing I said contradicts anything you just said. Now if you see me standing by the highway with "abolish the Fender Tonestack" signs, we may have another discussion.

 

[micguy]

The audibility (or not) of the phase shift in that eq circuit is something you can, if you want, ponder.

The audibility of the big honkin' dip in the mid frequencies is something pretty much anyone can hear easily, if you compare it with a flat response.

 

[pfschim]

I get it somewhat for guitar, but with bass I'm scratching my head as to the appeal. There must be some huge sonic benefit I don't understand, such that a person would accept such significant limitations.

I could honestly care less, I'm very much in "play what you like/like what you play" camp, but you are pretty much throwing shade here in my view. If you don't get it, that's fine, but for decades now, MANY others have been good with the Fender tone stack and find it a perfectly useful approach to getting great bass tone.

Like Wasnex, I originally learned to play on Fender gear so using that tone stack was just what you worked with. In the ensuing decades of playing and recording I have absolutely used others ... like the Ampeg/Bax tone stack too, but I never had a problem sounding good with Fender stuff.

Kind of disingenuous to say you aren't knocking it with your post.

 

[micguy]

While a Fender tone stack generally can't boost the mids, they can usually be adjusted to avoid an overly scooped response.

Depends on your definition of "overly scooped". I know of noone that twists the knobs on a Fender amp tp where it's actually flat - bass and treble are pretty much off, and the mid control is dimed if you want to get a flat response. It depends a bit on the particular amp, but most of them are pretty similar.

 

[DuluthDank]

I could honestly care less, I'm very much in "play what you like/like what you play" camp, but you are pretty much throwing shade here in my view. If you don't get it, that's fine, but for decades now, MANY others have been good with the Fender tone stack and find it a perfectly useful approach to getting great bass tone.

Like Wasnex, I originally learned to play on Fender gear so using that tone stack was just what you worked with. In the ensuing decades of playing and recording I have absolutely used others ... like the Ampeg/Bax tone stack too, but I never had a problem sounding good with Fender stuff.

Kind of disingenuous to say you aren't knocking it with your post.

It's always surprising to me how sensitive people get about subjective opinions about art.