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Double Bass Fifths Tuning!
- Thread starter Calvin Marks
- Start date
In my experience any F# solo string tuned up to G does not work. I’ve tried them all. Solo F# strings are all around 70+ Pounds, when you tune it up a half step it raises the pressure to around 80 pounds.
...but again, for a bass with short string lenght, say round 40, this raise in tension could prove beneficial
Great resources in this thread! Thanks for all the work put into making those comparative tension charts!
Despite all the sound advice against doing so, has anyone here gone ahead and actually tried the combination of
Evah weich B, Evah solo F#, Evah orch D, Evah solo A for fifths? I'm kind of intrigued after watching that Alexander Hanna video on youtube where he's playing Beethoven in fifths on this set.
It seems to work for arco on Hanna's bass but I'm curious if any fifths players who also play a lot of pizz have any feedback about this setup?
Thanks!
Despite all the sound advice against doing so, has anyone here gone ahead and actually tried the combination of
Evah weich B, Evah solo F#, Evah orch D, Evah solo A for fifths? I'm kind of intrigued after watching that Alexander Hanna video on youtube where he's playing Beethoven in fifths on this set.
It seems to work for arco on Hanna's bass but I'm curious if any fifths players who also play a lot of pizz have any feedback about this setup?
Thanks!
Also, have any of you fifth players managed to pull together a decent set of "trad" gut strings for fifths tuning?
I've been playing Sonores B-Roques made for fifths over the last couple of years and know that Baldock was making sets but he died last year last year.
One could probably pull something together with Gamut strings (They offer a low C) but I'm particularly looking for stringmakers in the EU who could do this. Sent an email already to Kurschner and should probably contact Toro & Efrano (who else am I forgetting?)...
I've been playing Sonores B-Roques made for fifths over the last couple of years and know that Baldock was making sets but he died last year last year.
One could probably pull something together with Gamut strings (They offer a low C) but I'm particularly looking for stringmakers in the EU who could do this. Sent an email already to Kurschner and should probably contact Toro & Efrano (who else am I forgetting?)...
I have never had Evah’s all the way across, but have used the Orchestra D and solo A on top of Red Mitchell C and G. I thought they sounded pretty nice but I did eventually change because I wanted an A that was closer in tension to the D. I was using that setup on this recording from a few years back. There is a short pizz solo just after the 3 min mark where you can get an idea of the sound of the top 2 Evah’s...
Unwrapped gut or wrapped in silver?
Unless you have a very long string length you are going to be hard pressed finding unwrapped gut that sounds good below GG - besides most of these notes were historically played using a wrapping anyway. It isn’t a “historical” string but Eudoxa is very good on the bottom two strings if you have well lubricated grooves at the nut.
I have seen an old string wrapping machine in the museum of musical instruments in Berlin. I think about two decades ago.
As far as I can remember this was operated by hand. If I remember correctly it was from the 17th century.
And as far as I know and we see form period strings made today, there was always only one layer of windings with a varying gut core thickness for different (low) pitched strings.
As far as I can remember this was operated by hand. If I remember correctly it was from the 17th century.
And as far as I know and we see form period strings made today, there was always only one layer of windings with a varying gut core thickness for different (low) pitched strings.
Thanks for sharing the audio sample, Chris. Nice playing and tone. I'm still on the fence to try all Evahs because of the balance issue. Something to think on. Going to try some Red Mitchell Spiros first...
Calvin, I should have specified a fifths set with round wound gut for C & G and plain gut for the D & A. Like a set of Chordas optimized for fifths tuning. I am not an early music player, just like the sound & feel of this type of string set and have found that a well made set can last for several years of hard playing.
I can imagine that Eudoxas for the low strings would sound incredible though. There's that youtube clip of John Feeney playing a Eudoxa C with plain guts (Baldock) for the rest. Beautiful tone. I'll probably steer clear of Eudoxas for the time being because of how brittle the windings can be.
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Yeah, RIP Nick Baldock.
Yeah, Raph from Violons du Roi in Montreal used to play HIP in 5ths (Don't know if he still does). Usually anything below GG is wrapped, though as someone with a plain low AA string I think a plain low GG would be totally doable.
My low B string is a Eudoxa, and I think next time might go for an Olive if they make one (I don't think they do, but maybe they do custom). It's a nice string but I don't find it mixes with my historical guts as well - my wound E is an old Baldock that I need to replace.
Yeah, Raph from Violons du Roi in Montreal used to play HIP in 5ths (Don't know if he still does). Usually anything below GG is wrapped, though as someone with a plain low AA string I think a plain low GG would be totally doable.
My low B string is a Eudoxa, and I think next time might go for an Olive if they make one (I don't think they do, but maybe they do custom). It's a nice string but I don't find it mixes with my historical guts as well - my wound E is an old Baldock that I need to replace.
RIP Nick Baldock indeed.
Just for kicks, here's that clip of John Feeney playing a Eudoxa C mixed with Baldock's unwound G, D & A strings:
When I was living in Montreal, I never ran across the Violons du Roi. Nicolas Lessard was the guy there playing early music on guts in fifths. He helped me get set up with an old set of really nice Sonores strings when I started playing in fifths. I don't think he's playing in fifths or on gut anymore however...
A lot of the playability in 5ths tuning comes from being able to play up the string as opposed to crossing as soon as possible. Unfortunately, that doesn't work super well on the lower gut strings - the string response of my E and B just dies once you hit ... oh gosh I can't remember Simandl position numbers, but sort of the 3rd Rabbath/Robinson position, in the thick of the neck break. If you get the highest quality strings I imagine anything is doable, but even when my Baldock E was new the notes north of the B on the E string started to get a little squirrely.
Can I play the A on the B string? Yes, I practice it every day at the moment. Are you going to find it to be a very useable and versatile sound? unfortunately not.
Raphael McNabney is the guy in VdR. I think the reason he cited was that they were touring a lot and he was sick of having to change strings on loaner basses every night. That's all second-hand information, mind you. I've never met the man personally (though I've seen him play).
Can I play the A on the B string? Yes, I practice it every day at the moment. Are you going to find it to be a very useable and versatile sound? unfortunately not.
Raphael McNabney is the guy in VdR. I think the reason he cited was that they were touring a lot and he was sick of having to change strings on loaner basses every night. That's all second-hand information, mind you. I've never met the man personally (though I've seen him play).
That's a good point about playability up the length of the string. It has not been much of an issue for me with Sonores B-Roque strings but is a phenomena that I've also experienced in some low round wound gut strings.
I think I might have a novel solution for you guys wanting to use evahs for 5ths tuning. As I was pouring through the string tension spreadsheet, I couldn't help but notice how wildly low Evah Slaps are in tension, which got me thinking that an Evah Slap E string tuned up to G might make more sense than the solo F# tuned up a semi tone. I run the numbers and low and behold, at 41 1/4" you're looking at 28.58 kg which is like .15 Kg more than the orchestra medium D.
So I took the risk and ordered one, which has been on my bass for a few days now along with the aforementioned medium D, a solo A and a Red Mitchell 3987 C. It is definitely the widest string that I've had sat in that position, but I'm adapting to that nicely and it sounds/feels pretty even in that context. I'm unsure if uptuning that string up so high will have any negative long term effects, so we'll see. I also have some big band dates upcoming and will happily report back afterwards.
So I took the risk and ordered one, which has been on my bass for a few days now along with the aforementioned medium D, a solo A and a Red Mitchell 3987 C. It is definitely the widest string that I've had sat in that position, but I'm adapting to that nicely and it sounds/feels pretty even in that context. I'm unsure if uptuning that string up so high will have any negative long term effects, so we'll see. I also have some big band dates upcoming and will happily report back afterwards.
I once tuned a low tension Super Sensitive Sensicore G or high C, cannot remember, up because I wanted to know if it would someone my better with more tension at a higher pitch, but it didn’t. So it tuned it a halftone higher and then once again and so on. A major third above then tended tuning it seemed to because me critical and a tiny bit higher the strong broke and that was without touching the string at all. At that interval up the tension rise is about 50%. Keep in mind that bowing or plucking the string will again rise the tension.
You can use my formulas.html on my Dropbox to find the tension for a stunde string. Enter 100 for the tension if you want to read a percentage.
OK, it happened on my 110 cm scale where the tension is like tuning a halftone up on a 105 cm scale.
But be sure that tuning the string higher will rise the probability for breaking the string and/or shorten the lifetime of the string.
You can use my formulas.html on my Dropbox to find the tension for a stunde string. Enter 100 for the tension if you want to read a percentage.
OK, it happened on my 110 cm scale where the tension is like tuning a halftone up on a 105 cm scale.
But be sure that tuning the string higher will rise the probability for breaking the string and/or shorten the lifetime of the string.
Just wanted to check back in after the Evah Slap E has been on my bass and tuned up to G for over a month now. It's still going strong, so far. The two big band shows I played towards the end of September went well and I did get compliments on the sound of the bass. I'm really enjoying Evahs in general, especially the way they amplify. Even with a realist on my bass, playing any kind all-metal string through an amplifier always sounds like a weird fretless bass guitar which would lead me to playing very heavy strings, very hard and trying to avoid the amplifier. But it sounds much more like an acoustic bass with Evahs plugged in.
It'm very keen to see how the uptuning is going to effect the longevity of my third string, but I think my next step is going to be finding a low C I like that has a bit lower tension to match the Evah slap E tuned up/take a bit of pressure off the bass bar. Currently considering an obligato from the fifths tuning set, a Corelli 370f B string tuned up, maybe even an Innovation Polychrome though I've heard of some reliability issues from the polychromes lately.
It'm very keen to see how the uptuning is going to effect the longevity of my third string, but I think my next step is going to be finding a low C I like that has a bit lower tension to match the Evah slap E tuned up/take a bit of pressure off the bass bar. Currently considering an obligato from the fifths tuning set, a Corelli 370f B string tuned up, maybe even an Innovation Polychrome though I've heard of some reliability issues from the polychromes lately.
