Finally played an all-tube amp!

[Jefenator]

I dusted off my old Sunn 200s for a couple of rock sets on Friday and had a freaking blast! (The sound with that is really distinct: very bold highs, and deep, yet somehow not mid-shy. Never experienced anything else quite like it.)
I used a Radial JDI to get a signal to the PA from the speaker output (in parallel). That worked great. With that method, you can DI the power section on any old tube amp.
Nothing comes close IME to a good tube amp experience, but I also find they don't fit every occasion. I am slowly getting better at predicting where they will & won't work. (All the while I strive to expand their utility - I've had fleeting success with the upright bass but that can be tricky.)

 

[metron]

You weren’t running enough cab. I don’t understand how people say a V4-B is underpowered. I run mine through a Barefaced Retro 610 and it can easily get too loud… in a Sludge/Doom Metal band. Granted, I don’t look for a clean sound at all, so that might be a factor… but by no means is that head underpowered with enough firepower underneath it.

Its easy to understand, everyones situation is unique to them. Not everyone has a 610, desires full blown distortion from their amp, or is satisfied with the SPL from a 100w V4. Some people cant escape ham fisted drummers which a V4B often cant compete with.

This is a bit OT from the premise of this thread, but I commented because Im one that really loves the V4B tone more than just about anything, but was never able to make it work with my band.

 

[Old Fart]

I think bobomatic is simply pointing to principle that paper is worth more than Watts in achieving loudness. This is axiomatic in our craft. Doubling wattage results in a 3db increase in loudness. Barely noticeable. A doubling of speaker area is way more noticeable.

Speaker sensitivity is similarly more important, usually, than increasing wattage. a 104db speaker is twice as loud as a 94db speaker. Loud drummers can be tamed with a V4B.

 

[bobomatic]

I think bobomatic is simply pointing to principle that paper is worth more than Watts in achieving loudness. This is axiomatic in our craft. Doubling wattage results in a 3db increase in loudness. Barely noticeable. A doubling of speaker area is way more noticeable.

Speaker sensitivity is similarly more important, usually, than increasing wattage. a 104db speaker is twice as loud as a 94db speaker. Loud drummers can be tamed with a V4B.

That about summed it up!

 

[Wasnex]

A doubling of speaker area is way more noticeable.

Let's clear this up a bit. If you hold the power steady at 100W and double the cabs, you get +3dB.


Keep in mind with a tube amp the max power is the same as long as the amp sees the expected load. The V4B has 8, 4, and 2 ohm output taps and is rated for 100W.

In order to get +6dB when you add the second cab, the amp must have the ability to hold the voltage constant. Holding voltage constant when the impedance is cut in half results in a doubling of power. Here's the math:

First let's find the voltage for 100W at 8 ohms

V=sq rt PZ
V=sq rt 100X8=~28.285V
​

Next find the power we get with ~28.285V at 4 ohms

P=(V^2)/Z
P=(~28.285^2)/4=200W
​

I used ~ to indicate rounded numbers, but I used all digit in the calculator memory for the computations.

​

 

[Old Fart]

My perspective is more experiential than scientific. Loud drummers are a bit of a problem. First, they demand that the entire band be also loud. Unfortunate. We should keep them in plexiglas enclosures.

More watts is one way of keeping up with their loudness. More speaker area is another, and this seems to work better than more watts. And finally, get a P-bass and dominate the frequencies in which nobody else really competes. Maybe 80-200 Hz. The kick drum dominates the very lowest frequencies. Live in that space just above that kick drum. A sort of "barking" bass tone.

A V4B will power two 8x10 cabs. So will an SVT, and the SVT will be louder but only something like 4-5db. A V4B does not need two fridges to tame a loud drummer. One fridge would do that.

 

[gstaats]

...And finally, get a P-bass...

I was with you, until that line... Different strokes for different folks. I definitely have grown fond of the tone that two gnarly HB6 humbuckers can provide.

 

[Old Fart]

Blondes, brunettes, redheads.... Player's choice. That's a seguey back to the original topic. Some folks notice a difference in 'feel' between an all-tube amp and a SS one. How the notes seem to jump out of the cabinet. Bloom. And/or they notice a tone difference. Perhaps more specifically, they notice the accuracy of SS amps compared to the distortion of tubes which some find pleasing.

There's a bass and a rig for everyone.

 

[gstaats]

Blondes, brunettes, redheads.... Player's choice. That's a seguey back to the original topic. Some folks notice a difference in 'feel' between an all-tube amp and a SS one. How the notes seem to jump out of the cabinet. Bloom. And/or they notice a tone difference. Perhaps more specifically, they notice the accuracy of SS amps compared to the distortion of tubes which some find pleasing.

There's a bass and a rig for everyone.

I actually like both. My band is recording shortly. Some songs really call for a clean tone. Some need a grit, while others just straight up need some hair. It is a bout playing for the song really and being versatile. Nice part of a tube amp is one can get those different tones from it. Even with a tubes, it varies how they sound. My B-15R will let me use 6L6GC or EL34 power amp tubes. Different character. Shoot, even different tubes in the same family sound different. The J&J EL34s are somewhat more sterile (but quieter) than the TAD EL34 Redbase STR tubes I have. I've rolled plenty of tubes through the preamp to find what works for me and my playing style. Can't swap out mosfets or transistors that easily to change tone.

 

[agedhorse]

Fortunately, changing transistors or MOSFETs doesn’t result in tone changes in well designed amps.

The choices of different parts is made for a variety of design reasons unrelated to tone.

 

[Wasnex]

More watts is one way of keeping up with their loudness. More speaker area is another, and this seems to work better than more watts.

Overall a good post, but IMHO the sentence I left in the quote is a bit misleading IMHO. Double the power with 1 cab and you get +3dB. Hold the power constant and double the cabs and you also get +3dB, but only at low frequencies where the spacing between the cabs is within about 1/4 wavelength.

Personally I think bringing a more powerful amp is going to be easier than bringing two large cabs, but YMMV.

Here are some figures:

-The decibel change from 1 to 100W is 20dB (V4).
-The decibel change from 1 to 300W is ~24.8dB (SVT)
-The sensitivity of an Ampeg 810E is 100dB 1W/1m
-The sensitivity of two Ampeg 810Es is 103dB 1W/1m​

-A modern V4B weighs 41lbs
-A modern SVT CL weighs 80lbs
-An 810E weighs 140lbs​

So

-A V4 with one 810E will make 120dB with 100W and the components will weigh 181lbs
-A V4 with two 810Es will make 123dB and the components will weigh 321lbs
-An SVT with one 810E will make 124.8dB with 300W and the components will weigh 220lbs
-An SVT with two 810Es will make 127.8dB with 300W and the components will weigh 360lbs
​

If a V4 and one 810 meets your needs, your golden. But if more headroom is needed, I personally would rather take an SVT and one 810 than a V4 and two 810s. Also the SVT with one 810 will technically be slightly louder (1.8dB) than the V4 with two 810s.

​

 

[frankie5string]

And finally, get a P-bass and dominate the frequencies in which nobody else really competes. Maybe 80-200 Hz. The kick drum dominates the very lowest frequencies. Live in that space just above that kick drum. A sort of "barking" bass tone.

A kick drum pulse is right around 75-85Hz, actually...;-)

 

[agedhorse]

A kick drum pulse is right around 75-85Hz, actually...;-)

It can be all over the place depending on the size of the drum, the mass and tension on the head(s), and the position of the beater. It really depends.

 

[gstaats]

It can be all over the place depending on the size of the drum, the mass and tension on the head(s), and the position of the beater. It really depends.

I've always wondered what that interaction looks like. I've never looked at a spectrogram of just a bass and kick drum. May be cool to do to fool around, but I don't know if I could actually get any meaningful info from it. I try to listen to the drummer and incorporate his kick pattern into my playing to accent the kick. The inverse is true with the snare - I try to let the snare breathe. (Original music - covers I try to reproduce faithfully when doing them)

 

[mikeswals]

My hybrid amp died on me over two years ago, and I went back to using tubers.

 

[Dave TB Killer]

It's like the first time you have sex with a woman who actually likes sex.

 

[Dp1363]

You weren’t running enough cab. I don’t understand how people say a V4-B is underpowered. I run mine through a Barefaced Retro 610 and it can easily get too loud… in a Sludge/Doom Metal band. Granted, I don’t look for a clean sound at all, so that might be a factor… but by no means is that head underpowered with enough firepower underneath it.

I have plenty of cab. 2 Barefaced BB2'S. I run them with my Mesa Boogie D800+ and it is thunderous LOUD. Sorry, but the V4B at 100 watts is under powered, plain and simple.

 

[Dp1363]

Its easy to understand, everyones situation is unique to them. Not everyone has a 610, desires full blown distortion from their amp, or is satisfied with the SPL from a 100w V4. Some people cant escape ham fisted drummers which a V4B often cant compete with.

This is a bit OT from the premise of this thread, but I commented because Im one that really loves the V4B tone more than just about anything, but was never able to make it work with my band.

100% spot on assessment. Same for me.

 

[coreyfyfe]

I have plenty of cab. 2 Barefaced BB2'S. I run them with my Mesa Boogie D800+ and it is thunderous LOUD. Sorry, but the V4B at 100 watts is under powered, plain and simple.

My “big” cab these days is a berg CN212 which has a pretty high sensitivity rating at 104db at 2.83v/1m. I know Alex is usually pretty conservative in his ratings so the BB2 having a broadband sensitivity rating of 97db isn’t too surprising, but if the numbers are accurate using that CN212 would be like using four of the BB2s. Maybe in reality it’s closer to three.

The last outdoor no bass in the PA gig I did I used my model T clone (150 watts), the CN212, and a p bass. Master volume all the way up, channel volumes low and clean (as clean as a model T gets), and I had no issues with volume. If I needed to be louder than that I would have expected full PA support, most of us were already wearing earplugs.

I get the appeal of these huge wattage class D amps, and in fact I have one (mostly use it for upright), but for me if I’m playing an electric gig louder than a decent tube amp and good cab can provide then I would expect some level of PA support. I get not every gig is the same, etc etc, but stage volume wars aren’t something I strive for, and my setup has worked for me. Glad yours works for you.

For upright I always go with the class D because it has a built in hpf and notch filter which helps with feedback.

 

[agedhorse]

Note that the CN212 is a 4 ohm speaker, so the sensitivity given at 2.83V is at 2 watts whereas the Barefaced sensitivity is given at 1W.

The CN212’s 1W sensitivity would be (104dB-3dB) 101dB/1W/1M.