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fingerboard, neck, body... rank importance

My experience and qualifications are limited. I'm neither a professional luthier or an engineer, I've only built a couple of instruments from scratch, and assembled a few guitars and basses from parts. However, I'm a pretty serious player with over 40 years experience, my best friend is a respected luthier (mainly acoustic and electric guitars) and I've studied construction for years, so I'll risk giving the OP's question a go:

How close to the Warwick do you want to get? You can probably build a Jazz copy that shares some characteristics, but if you really want to nail that tone, you should probably just buy a Warwick.

Here are some thoughts, and a few educated guesses:

I can't buy the idea that tonewoods don't matter. You might not be able to tell whether an Alder body came off the south side of the tree, but if you can't hear the difference between a Les Paul and an SG, you've got cloth ears. For that matter, I've put good hardware into Epiphone Les Pauls for a number of kids, and although they sound better, they never end up with the brash, ringing tone of a real Les Paul Standard. And the only difference left after you change out the pickups, machine heads, and bridge/tailpiece on a set-neck LP, is the lumber...

I agree with the suggestion that pickup/preamp choice probably has the largest effect on tone. Stick a vintage Jazz pickup set in a Stingray, and you pretty much lose the plot.

I would also agree that the neck is a big contributor. I've played numerous basses and guitars with Wenge necks, and there has definitely been a common thread in terms of the midrange character and sustain. I had a baritone strat with a Black Limba body, Wenge neck and ebony fingerboard. It definitely had the impressive sustain and throaty midrange I expect from Wenge. When I swapped the neck out for birdseye maple with a rosewood fingerboard, the guitar moved much closer to conventional Strat territory, despite the unusual, high-density body wood.

So on to specifics: The Streamer Jazzman has a small, lightweight ash/maple body, a tilt-back paddle headstock, and an Alembic-ish separate bridge and tailpiece. If you re-package it in a Jazz bass configuration, it's going to be a heavy mother, due to the larger body. There are going to be some minor tonal differences from the larger inline headstock and the integrated bridge/tailpiece, as well.

Still, the Warwick has that quirky neck wood combination, and IME that tends to give an instrument a dominant character. So my guess is that an Ovangkol/Wenge-necked Jazz with Warwick electronics, would have definite tendencies in the right direction.

However, that's the first real hitch: Unless he's building from scratch, I doubt that the OP can perfectly match the Warwick's lumber package. Two issues immediately come to mind:

1.) The maple cap on the Warwick is pretty thick, so both woods will contribute to the body resonance (back to the Les Paul vs SG issue). That suggests a big bottom, with some extra snap on top. In contrast, exotic-top Jazz bodies general have a thin cosmetic cap. Since guys like Rick Turner, Sadowsky and Warmoth agree that cosmetic caps have relatively little effect on tone, I'd expect an exotic-top Warmoth body to have more of a conventional ash resonance.

2.) Good luck finding a parts company that sells Ovangkol bass necks. It apparently sounds kind of like Rosewood in the lows and mids, but with a bit more zing on top.

If the OP still intends to go ahead, I would be thinking about Indian Rosewood or maybe Wenge for the neck, with a Wenge fingerboard. It would also seem reasonable to go with a chambered body, in order to keep the weight down and hopefully stay a little closer to the Warwick tonal recipe.

I would personally ditch the maple fingerboard idea. Maple is at the brighter end of the scale, whereas Wenge sounds pretty dark. Plus, it has that distinctive midrange character. I know that the fingerboard is only the icing on the cake, but I'm thinking that the OP has made enough changes already...

I don't know how close the end product would come to a real Warwick in tone, but it would certainly be an interesting-sounding instrument, and the look would be stunning. And IME, unfinished exotic wood necks feel terrific.
 
Link Removed

"How to get a thread locked in less than three pages"


sorry Steve, there's a reason that most of us who actually build instruments and who've been on the LC forum for more than a season do all we can to avoid these threads ... they all end up in the same place ... in a flame war and LOCKED

you want to know my thoughts on tone? come spend an afternoon with me in the shop and I'll show you what I've learned influences tone. we can discuss it in a manner where we can interact in a real discussion, where it's possible to actually see and hear and experience why I have my opinions on this topic and how each nuance changes things. we can get past the cumbersome difficulties of written language and hear right thru an amp.

sorry, but there's no other way to do truly it ... and it's so much more than simply pontificating to utilize a bolt-on/neck-thru/set-neck, or to use this wood, or that finish, or those pickups. I'm sorry if you find that difficult to accept

all the best,

R
 
I hope my comments didn't come across as an attempt to start a flame war. I would love to be able to spend an afternoon in your shop, and I know that I would learn a ton from the experience. I'm sure that the OP would, too.

Still, I am disappointed that the first page of this thread, was the best that TB could do for the OP. I think that his question deserved more respect, and more hard information, than was displayed thus far.

Not everyone can hop on a plane and go talk to a luthier. For a lot of people, free exchange of ideas and information on forums like this are the best, and possibly the only, source of information they have.

And by the way, when it comes to the idea that great basses require more than just following a recipe, I don't find it "hard to accept" at all. That's why people like you are in business, and why I have so often recommended your brand to friends.
 
Steve, this is the 2nd thread on the same question, just in a more aloof fashion. It's one of those things where someone wants to hear something that hasn't been said. Absolutes if you will, and there is never any absolutes in this business, thus the basic lack of attention. We can only guess, and can never give the affirmation the OP wants.
Also, this has been hashed out ad nauseam on here over the last few years, thus it becomes more about the rhetoric than useful and viable information. We do understand, but like Rod, Mike, and anyone who has broached it here, we cannot give absolutes.
 
Not everyone can hop on a plane and go talk to a luthier. For a lot of people, free exchange of ideas and information on forums like this are the best, and possibly the only, source of information they have.

in order to have a free exchage of info, one must acknowledge that there are limitations to what can be conveyed purely via text in an internet forum. ambiguity in terminology breeds misunderstanding.

like I noted earlier, there's more to it than just saying use this wood for that part ...

let's take a minute to consider the wood used for a neck and also many significant factors that are most likley unnoticed by most players. for simplicity, let's also assume that we're using "Maple" for the neck ...

- which specific Maple species is it that's being used for this neck shaft?

- what is the overall density of the wood selected for this neck? is it consistent thru the entire piece? if not, how much does it vary and where?

- where was this piece of wood in the larger context of the tree?

- how wide are the growth rings? are they consistent? are they straight or do they have a twist? is there run out?

- is this piece flatsawn, quartersawn, riftsawn, or ????

- what is the relative internal humidity of the wood?

- how was the wood dried? if a kiln was used, what temperatures and cycle times were used?

- is this neck made from multiple pieces? if so, what is the construction technique? how many lamination pieces? how are they orientated in relation to each other?

- what are the physical dimensions of the neck?

- how is the trussrod channel routed? what size TR is being used? what kind of TR is being used? how deep is the channel? is there more than one TR?

- is there reinforcement in this neck? what kind? if metallic, which alloy? what size? how close does it come to the nut? how far into the heel? are the stiffeners parallel to centerline or parallel to the fretboard edge, or other? how far apart are the stiffeners and trussrod?


shy of sitting down with multiple necks, bodies, electronics, and amplifiers ... it's incredibly difficult to have a meaningful conversation on this topic without absolutes in the language used to converse. further complications arise due to differing construction methods and supplimental materials.

this is exacly why so many of the builders here avoid attempting to have this conversation in this kind of forum.

all the best,

R
 
MikeyB - you are taking a risk by listening to what Steve has posted.

It is nothing more than confidently-stated half-formed opinions that are strongly and obviously influenced by his own susceptibility to the power of suggestion. There is no evidence whatsoever in what he's written, no scientific method is referenced and he has put forth these opinions into the ether, which is just where he got them from.

Just because every knowledgeable person in this thread has agreed with what you did not want to hear, it is no reason to listen to the one person who had something to say that was in agreement with your preconceived notions. Did you notice that Steve was the only person who postulated that opinion? You are obviously not an idiot, and you're obviously not a child. It appears though, that you are undercutting and disregarding the wise experience being given to you, because you are not happy with the tone of the message.

Just as others have directed you to read, Steve has not. Based on his statements, that is because he has never done the reading/research himself either - and is blindly trusting his own perceptions and opinions. If he had, he would already have read dozens of very well worded opinions and thought experiments that explore this topic thoughtfully and thoroughly, and would likely not have posted his thoughts in this fashion. Like Rodent and many of us who have been down this road already, Steve's opinions would probably be 180 degrees from where they are now.

He's not "wrong", he just doesn't have all the information and is operating on some fundamentally flawed assumptions. If you listen to him, you're basically getting driving lessons from a blind man...
 
MikeyB - you are taking a risk by listening to what Steve has posted.

It is nothing more than confidently-stated half-formed opinions that are strongly and obviously influenced by his own susceptibility to the power of suggestion. There is no evidence whatsoever in what he's written, no scientific method is referenced and he has put forth these opinions into the ether, which is just where he got them from.

Just because every knowledgeable person in this thread has agreed with what you did not want to hear, it is no reason to listen to the one person who had something to say that was in agreement with your preconceived notions. Did you notice that Steve was the only person who postulated that opinion? You are obviously not an idiot, and you're obviously not a child. It appears though, that you are undercutting and disregarding the wise experience being given to you, because you are not happy with the tone of the message.

Just as others have directed you to read, Steve has not. Based on his statements, that is because he has never done the reading/research himself either - and is blindly trusting his own perceptions and opinions. If he had, he would already have read dozens of very well worded opinions and thought experiments that explore this topic thoughtfully and thoroughly, and would likely not have posted his thoughts in this fashion. Like Rodent and many of us who have been down this road already, Steve's opinions would probably be 180 degrees from where they are now.

He's not "wrong", he just doesn't have all the information and is operating on some fundamentally flawed assumptions. If you listen to him, you're basically getting driving lessons from a blind man...

QFE
 
Cut the guy a little slack. The first thing his post establishes is that his opinion is not based on his skill as a luthier, but on many years of playing different instruments. He was quite clear that it is his opinion based on his experience and he is crystal clear as to the limits of that experience.
No one else tried to give the OP an answer at all, so he did, first making it clear where the opinion comes from. The OP can then decide for himself whether or not to put any stock in said opinion.
To be blunt, it was an excellent post. The guy honestly stated his qualifications or lack thereof and then tried to provide an answer to the best of his ability.
Trust his opinion or don't, but the slam I just read is way over the top.
 
Cut the guy a little slack.
No one else tried to give the OP an answer at all, so he did,

Did you not read these:

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

please NOT another of these tone war provoking threads. OP - please do a search in this very forum and you'll quickly find ENDLESS examples of this topic going ballistic within two pages. there simply is no need for yet another one of these threads :rollno:

STOP THIS THREAD NOW! AT BEST ALL ANYONE CAN HOPE TO OFFER IS THEIR UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINION ACCOMPANIED BY A (USUALLY NON-)COMPELLING ARGUMENT PONTIFICATING HOW THEY ARE A TONE QUANTIFYING EXPERT. THERE'S A REASON ALL OF THESE THREADS GET LOCKED BY THE MODS


for the record, the most significant tone imparting element on an electric bass is the cable running from the bass to the amp ... without it you have NO tone whatsoever :ninja:

all the best,

R

The player.
/thread

Rod is right.....

Singling out individual attributes, negates an instrument as a whole. Everything affects an instrument, but to what degree, is no question subjective....

The closest I've seen to an objective answer to this question is in a thread I read earlier today, in Luthiers corner I believe. I think it was a discussion on the science of dead spots, and some dude had done some sort of velocity imaging (I could be mixing topics here, short term memory not so good at times!). There was an interesting color plot which COULD be interpreted as indicating the neck is the largest contributor to vibration in a solid body bass.

That said, the other guys are right - tone is inherently subjective, and a good musician can pick up any old bass and make it sing. Time spent arguing tone would be better spent improving yours.

Agreed, but then I think that even those results would have been affected by something like a poorly clamped glue joint......

By answering the OP I think at best you can nail down about 60-70% of the planned result, the rest is variable. And then, if you play like me you can make a $15000,00 bass sound like a $60,00 First Act bass.

True. Just because an experiment is high-tech doesn't mean it's scientific. You would need to do the same experiment on a statistically significant number of instruments, in contolled conditons, in order to be able to draw any firm conclusions. Even then, the subjective aspect of tone would remain.

The tone pot you idiot...

...or take that same $15000,00 bass, and plug in into a POS amp with bad/blown/$htty speakers...still crap.


.


Well dude, you've had input from two luthiers and at least one engineer. My advice, FWIW - focus on the pups, electronics, neck, body, in that order.

I am and I did. wisdom from years of actually building basses, not hate, is the foundation of my earlier post.


there's a difference between having your ears tickled with what you want to hear, and having your misconceptions challenged by truth. I was lead astry with internet myths in my earlier years of building ... personal hands-on experience has made me wiser on this topic, giving me a near 180 degree change in opinion from what I thought I knew to be right to what I now know to be right

all the best,

R

Rod speaks for us.

Amen. Too often the voice of experience is too quickly dismissed as "hate" or "bias" simply because it strongly disagrees with someone else's opinion.



I, too, used to have this big belief in "tone woods"... but my opinion now leans toward some combination of pickups/electronics and the players touch/technique.

Rod said 2 mouthfuls, and it really cannot be more succint. Well said Rod, and very diplomatic;)

TONE IS NOT A BUILDING MATERIAL!!!!!! there...back on track!!

Link Removed

"How to get a thread locked in less than three pages"


sorry Steve, there's a reason that most of us who actually build instruments and who've been on the LC forum for more than a season do all we can to avoid these threads ... they all end up in the same place ... in a flame war and LOCKED

you want to know my thoughts on tone? come spend an afternoon with me in the shop and I'll show you what I've learned influences tone. we can discuss it in a manner where we can interact in a real discussion, where it's possible to actually see and hear and experience why I have my opinions on this topic and how each nuance changes things. we can get past the cumbersome difficulties of written language and hear right thru an amp.

sorry, but there's no other way to do truly it ... and it's so much more than simply pontificating to utilize a bolt-on/neck-thru/set-neck, or to use this wood, or that finish, or those pickups. I'm sorry if you find that difficult to accept

all the best,

R


Steve, this is the 2nd thread on the same question, just in a more aloof fashion. It's one of those things where someone wants to hear something that hasn't been said. Absolutes if you will, and there is never any absolutes in this business, thus the basic lack of attention. We can only guess, and can never give the affirmation the OP wants.
Also, this has been hashed out ad nauseam on here over the last few years, thus it becomes more about the rhetoric than useful and viable information. We do understand, but like Rod, Mike, and anyone who has broached it here, we cannot give absolutes.

Define dark.


Define dry.


Define compressed.


Define lo-mid.


Define growl.

And reread Larry's post.

He gets educated. As does anyone else that comes here without any clue and not willing to search.

in order to have a free exchage of info, one must acknowledge that there are limitations to what can be conveyed purely via text in an internet forum. ambiguity in terminology breeds misunderstanding.

like I noted earlier, there's more to it than just saying use this wood for that part ...

let's take a minute to consider the wood used for a neck and also many significant factors that are most likley unnoticed by most players. for simplicity, let's also assume that we're using "Maple" for the neck ...

- which specific Maple species is it that's being used for this neck shaft?

- what is the overall density of the wood selected for this neck? is it consistent thru the entire piece? if not, how much does it vary and where?

- where was this piece of wood in the larger context of the tree?

- how wide are the growth rings? are they consistent? are they straight or do they have a twist? is there run out?

- is this piece flatsawn, quartersawn, riftsawn, or ????

- what is the relative internal humidity of the wood?

- how was the wood dried? if a kiln was used, what temperatures and cycle times were used?

- is this neck made from multiple pieces? if so, what is the construction technique? how many lamination pieces? how are they orientated in relation to each other?

- what are the physical dimensions of the neck?

- how is the trussrod channel routed? what size TR is being used? what kind of TR is being used? how deep is the channel? is there more than one TR?

- is there reinforcement in this neck? what kind? if metallic, which alloy? what size? how close does it come to the nut? how far into the heel? are the stiffeners parallel to centerline or parallel to the fretboard edge, or other? how far apart are the stiffeners and trussrod?


shy of sitting down with multiple necks, bodies, electronics, and amplifiers ... it's incredibly difficult to have a meaningful conversation on this topic without absolutes in the language used to converse. further complications arise due to differing construction methods and supplimental materials.

this is exacly why so many of the builders here avoid attempting to have this conversation in this kind of forum.

all the best,

R


MikeyB - you are taking a risk by listening to what Steve has posted.

It is nothing more than confidently-stated half-formed opinions that are strongly and obviously influenced by his own susceptibility to the power of suggestion. There is no evidence whatsoever in what he's written, no scientific method is referenced and he has put forth these opinions into the ether, which is just where he got them from.

Just because every knowledgeable person in this thread has agreed with what you did not want to hear, it is no reason to listen to the one person who had something to say that was in agreement with your preconceived notions. Did you notice that Steve was the only person who postulated that opinion? You are obviously not an idiot, and you're obviously not a child. It appears though, that you are undercutting and disregarding the wise experience being given to you, because you are not happy with the tone of the message.

Just as others have directed you to read, Steve has not. Based on his statements, that is because he has never done the reading/research himself either - and is blindly trusting his own perceptions and opinions. If he had, he would already have read dozens of very well worded opinions and thought experiments that explore this topic thoughtfully and thoroughly, and would likely not have posted his thoughts in this fashion. Like Rodent and many of us who have been down this road already, Steve's opinions would probably be 180 degrees from where they are now.

He's not "wrong", he just doesn't have all the information and is operating on some fundamentally flawed assumptions. If you listen to him, you're basically getting driving lessons from a blind man...

??!!


To be blunt, it was an excellent post. The guy honestly stated his qualifications or lack thereof and then tried to provide an answer to the best of his ability. Trust his opinion or don't, but the slam I just read is way over the top.

ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE LACK OF QUALIFICATIONS IS NOW A QUALIFICATION?????!!!! :mad:
 
Did you not read these:
??!!
Yes, I read them. Every one of them says the same thing. Some in well thought out, articulate posts, some in wise *** comments. Essentially they give the same piece of advice. "The question can't be answered that simply."
I'm not arguing that their advice was bad. In fact, from what I've read in my brief time here, I would have to agree.

One poster attempted to give the kind of answer that the OP asked for. He wanted an opinion and he got one. That poster was careful not to misrepresent his qualifications. He did his best based on his knowledge to provide an answer.


ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE LACK OF QUALIFICATIONS IS NOW A QUALIFICATION?????!!!! :mad:

Obviously not. I'm saying that all relevent information was supplied. The OP knows what the answer is based on: playing experience, not building. I'm not saying I disagree with the major points in the rebuttal that set me off. I just didn't like the tone. To me it came across as one of those posts that discourages open communication on the forum. "Shut up, you don't know what you're talking about."
 
Cut the guy a little slack. The first thing his post establishes is that his opinion is not based on his skill as a luthier, but on many years of playing different instruments. He was quite clear that it is his opinion based on his experience and he is crystal clear as to the limits of that experience.
No one else tried to give the OP an answer at all, so he did, first making it clear where the opinion comes from. The OP can then decide for himself whether or not to put any stock in said opinion.
To be blunt, it was an excellent post. The guy honestly stated his qualifications or lack thereof and then tried to provide an answer to the best of his ability.
Trust his opinion or don't, but the slam I just read is way over the top.
I hear your point, and although I didn't intend it as a slam against Steve per se, but rather his statements and the furthered promotion of this incredibly poorly thought out "tone wood debate". I did write in a fashion in which I would likely not have spoken to him or others if we had been present in the same room, and for that I apologize. My tone was definitely more editorial than usual.

I do not apologize for my argument though, that will continue to raise my hackles, as does the furtherance of any disinformation as its is more harmful than helpful. I reacted in a way similar to how I would react if I found out my child was being taught religion at his/her secular school and would do so again.

Ignorance may serve as an adequate explanation for engaging in harmful action, but it is far from being an excuse...