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Double Bass Fingering Question - Beethoven 9, 4th Movement

Steve Freides

Steve Freides

Former Mannes College Theory Faculty
Supporting Member
Dec 11, 2007
2,576
1,508
Ridgewood, NJ
#1
The famous "Freude schoene goetterfunken" - how do you play it? I'm asking not for myself but for a student playing an arrangement for middle school orchestra, but I have really only one question - whenever I've thought of this, it's always been F#, G, A, A, G, F#, E, D all on the 2nd string. To my ears it sounds too bright to play in 1st position, and I could even see the E and D on the 3rd string. Too bright, simple, not sure what the right word is but it just doesn't sound right to me played in 1st position.

I've attached a page of score I found on IMSLP.ORG.

I'm well acquainted with the piece but only from having sung in the choir for several performances during my college years, and I've never played it in a performance on the bass so I confess my complete lack of experience with this on the bass. My student's arranged is also marked Allegro Assai but at a slower tempo, 112-120 to the quarter rather than the 80 to the half note of the full score.

One of the things of teaching children - those of you who teach children know this well, I'm sure - is that they want to play in ways that don't require them to think, even when some thinking would produce better playing in terms of ease of fingering, the right approach for the piece, etc.

Thanks in advance for your replies.
 

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#2
Steve Freides said:
To my ears it sounds too bright to play in 1st position, and I could even see the E and D on the 3rd string. Too bright, simple, not sure what the right word is but it just doesn't sound right to me played in 1st position.
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My two cents.

Tone quality will depend on the bass, strings, and setup (as well as technique). Overly bright tone close to the bass is not necessarily an indicator of overly bright tone in the distance. Overly bright tone in a small, dry rehearsal space is not necessarily an indicator of overly bright tone in a reverberant performance hall. In general sound gets darker and more diffuse as it travel of the distance in a performance hall. So it can be useful for the tone to be overly bright near the instrument.

The ability to play well higher on the neck varies with the student's proficiency.

IMHO, base the decision on where it sound best on the student's bass in a performance hall, and if is the student ready to play it where it sounds best.
 
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#3
@Wasnex, my student plays beautifully in tune in the 6th grade and has rather a high opinion of the way he figures out to do things. With all due respect and having been teaching since 1971, I'm not asking how to handle my student, I'm asking to play the passage well. If I didn't communicate that well in my obsequiousness about not having played this in performance myself, I apologize for my poor communication.

Thanks.

-S-
 
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#4
Steve Freides said:
@Wasnex, With all due respect and having been teaching since 1971, I'm not asking how to handle my student, I'm asking to play the passage well.
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:rollno:

I didn't tell you how to handle the student. I indicated the way to play a passage well can vary depending on a range of factors. As a result, not everyone in bass section will choose to play each passage exactly the same way.

I agree you should already understand this and be equipped to guide your student accordingly, and yet you asked a question that suggests otherwise (IMHO of course). Sorry for trying to help :banghead:.

Good day!

UNSUB
 
#5
Here is what Oscar Zimmerman sez...
(If you're teaching Beethoven Bass, this book is a great resource...)
IMFO, of course.
IMG_6063.jpeg

IMG_6062.jpeg
 
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#8
neilG said:
What possible reason could there be to start the melody on 4th finger?
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Maybe to establish ergonomic consistency & familiarity for the many recurring F#'s in the first 9+ measures that might subsequently be played with the 4th finger?
Maybe it is a solid starting position for the beginning of the Movement?
I don't know. (shrug emoji here)
Ask Oscar Z.
 
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#9
neilG said:
What possible reason could there be to start the melody on 4th finger?
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I can tell you what my 6th grader would say. He'd say he always plays F# with his 4th finger so why would he ever want to do it any other way. On the G string, he'll play B - C - B as 4 - 1 - 4, just because that's what he's used to. And he would deal with the string crossing of playing the G open for the same reason, IOW, he's play the whole thing in 1st position.

-S-
 
#10
Steve Freides said:
I can tell you what my 6th grader would say. He'd say he always plays F# with his 4th finger so why would he ever want to do it any other way. On the G string, he'll play B - C - B as 4 - 1 - 4, just because that's what he's used to. And he would deal with the string crossing of playing the G open for the same reason, IOW, he's play the whole thing in 1st position.

-S-
Click to expand...
Well, we're not dealing with a sixth grader or a fingering in first position. If you have a G string that you can get the proper attack and sound on, that melody works just fine in 1st position.
 
#11
Don Kasper said:
Maybe to establish ergonomic consistency & familiarity for the many recurring F#'s in the first 9+ measures that might subsequently be played with the 4th finger?
Maybe it is a solid starting position for the beginning of the Movement?
I don't know. (shrug emoji here)
Ask Oscar Z.
Click to expand...
Well, Oscar is no longer with us so we can't ask. One theory I've heard is that the fourth finger start was from the era of thick gut strings and was just a sure way to get the string to the fingerboard to get started. You see it in a lot of the old method and etude books. Having played basses with gut strings, I don't really buy that idea. I think it's just a crutch for not really knowing where the notes are with any finger, which is hard to reconcile with a player of Zimmerman's caliber. Maybe just a holdover technique that he was comfortable with. It's not the optimal fingering for those first three notes.
 
#12
The reason the F# is played with 4 is that that is how the D major scale is taught in the F. Simandl book, and perhaps others. It provides a way to obtain a good vibrato, and to provide a familiar slurred shift up the D string.
 

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#13
That passage comes after the big recitative section and there should be quite a large contrast in volume. Starting with 4th finger on the f# lets you play the passage legato without having to cross strings. Open d's are okay. What you want is nice, smooth phrasing and the indicated slurring and fingering. Going up and down the d string makes that possible. This is the melody, so we want it to sound extra good.:) The counter melody that starts in bar 17 is one my favorite Beethoven passages to play.
 
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#16
Bruce Calin said:
That passage comes after the big recitative section and there should be quite a large contrast in volume. Starting with 4th finger on the f# lets you play the passage legato without having to cross strings. Open d's are okay. What you want is nice, smooth phrasing and the indicated slurring and fingering. Going up and down the d string makes that possible. This is the melody, so we want it to sound extra good.:) The counter melody that starts in bar 17 is one my favorite Beethoven passages to play.
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I don't understand why you would think that starting on 4 and not 1 would make the passage more legato. The cellos also play this on their D string in the same relative position basses use. Find a cellist and ask what fingering they use.
 
#17
bass player 53 said:
The reason the F# is played with 4 is that that is how the D major scale is taught in the F. Simandl book, and perhaps others. It provides a way to obtain a good vibrato, and to provide a familiar slurred shift up the D string.
Click to expand...
Well, that's a teaching problem. If you can play a D major scale, you are familiar with Simandl 3rd position and can come up with a better fingering than what's in that excerpt book. My students will have 4 fingerings for D major at this point in Simandl.
 
#18
neilG said:
Well, that's a teaching problem. If you can play a D major scale, you are familiar with Simandl 3rd position and can come up with a better fingering than what's in that excerpt book. My students will have 4 fingerings for D major at this point in Simandl.
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Ok, so what fingering for the excerpt do you teach/prefer?



At the 2:58 mark, cello and db fingering:

 
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