first rig purchase - check my thinking

[engedi1]

I believe this might be part of the problem. When we scoop the mids or do "smiley" EQ, we are removing the frequencies that are important to the mix. So we overcompensate by turning up the volume (and many people manage to blow speakers this way). I went for years using scoops, contours, and smiley EQ's and always complaining that no matter how big my rig got, I couldn't hear it well enough. Then I came here and someone said to try putting those mids back in. Yes, the sound is kinda honky on its own, but when it blends with the rest of the band, it sounds good and you can actually hear it. Since then, I've never had a problem being heard and people in the audience whose opinion I could rely on said it sounds great.

That said, it might not be the problem I described, but it certainly warrants looking into either by having someone record the band, or get someone who knows what they are talking about listening to you in the audience and giving you feedback.

+1000 to the above. A generall rule of thumb is that if you like the tone 3 feet from your amp, the audience won't hear it, or it will be muddy. You really do need to dial down the bass and crank up the mids-it may sound thin and honky to you, but you have to remember that the room itself will amply the low end of your signal. This is true in recordings to. If you were to solo a huge, butt shaking bass track, you might be amazed how thin and scratchy it is. Some amps do midrange better than other and that may be an issue with your current rig as well.

I am a huge lover of 12's, as they add more midrange, but still have some guts to them. However, you can't have just one. You really need two twelves. Since you like a modern sound, the Shuttle 6.0 plus 2 x Aguilar Gs112's would be a perfect rig (not cheap though). I used a very similar rig for years, in a pretty loud band, and never had problems.

Good luck! Welcome to bass. Being a bass player is all about spending years and thousands of dollars trying to find the perfect amp/cabs/strings/bass/effects/etc-the music is totally secondary

 

[RickenBoogie]

[QUOTE=Rebecca;919627



I usually use a knob that scoops the mids because I like the tone I get (for most things I play, but not all). But I don't see how that plays into the volume question.

I'll respond to this part. Essentially, the lower the frequency you're trying to reproduce with an amp and speakers, the more power from the amp it takes. Midrange is much easier to amplify, and also to hear. When you cut mids and boost bass, you're wasting the power from your amp trying to push those low frequencies. The result is, it becomes harder to hear the bass, as well as being harder on the speakers, (they'll fart out easier at lower frequencies). So, the key to being heard, AND having great tone, is having enough power to push the load through enough speakers to hear it-usually meaning the amps eq section is set almost flat, with only minor tweaks to frequencies that are causing problems. This could be cut, rather than boost.
Lots of good advice here, (this thread)- you'll put a great rig together, I'm sure, so best of luck.

 

[muddycreek]

But maybe I should back off on amp power and spend the difference on more cab to begin with.

If you can be comfortable using the GK Backline for a month or two more, this (above) is probably the right move. It's plenty of amp. So, beg/borrow/try at music stores as many cabinets as you can first.

Start with your head set all flat each time you play a new cabinet, and keep notes (even just mental) how much you need to change the EQ settings to get the sound you like. You'll start realizing you have preferences.

Come back here and tell people which cabs sounded best to you flat, and which you didn't like (and why, as much as you can) and we can help lead you to other cabinets that might be similar, or louder in the same tone family, or just as good but lighter, or cheaper, or whatever your particular requirements are.

If you get cabs that deliver most of what you want, then the amp decision gets a lot easier, as the head's going to have less of an impact on your overall tone (unless you REALLY need a particular flavor of tone shaping).

Or just hang it all and buy a shuttle 6.0 and a 212 neo cab and have something that is extremely likely to sound good, be loud enough, and be easy to carry. But try to buy it used for when it turns out to be ALMOST exactly what you want.

 

[Ric5]

For me 200 to 400 watts works good but a single 12" speaker never would. I like 4 10s or 2 15s or 2 10s and 1 18. Also gigging get a pa with subs and run everything into the pa system.

As per scooping out the mids I used to do that when I used old Peavey gear because those old amps and speakers didn't have warm mids . The mids were harsh in those amps. But now with my ampeg heads I get nice sounding mids.

 

[engedi1]

+1 to the Neox 212. Also not cheap, but on its own should be enough for most gigs. I like having 2 112's personally, simply for portability. Also, if you play a smaller gig, you can take just one of them. You can always add a third 112 if you need to flatten your audience. The modular concept rules! However, the neox212 is pretty light.

 

[kevin newsham]

My friend, you need both cabs and power. Flatten that eq so you can hear the full spectrum of the bass, add some power for dynamic headroom, and some cabinets to handle the volume and dispersion of your sound.

Suggestions? Sure.
If you are playing blues and rock and you are thinking GB, then the shuttle 6.0 would be minimum. Paired with the Neox 2x12, or the Uber 2x12 would really kill

GK 1001rb, and again a 2x12 GK Neo would fit the bill, and has a nice agressive growl to it.

Another suggestion would be a Markbass LMIII, paired with either Markbass, or other cabinet of your choice.

I would avoid brands like Acoustic and Beringer, just my opinion, but even cheap that stuff is overpriced beginer gear.
The big deal is, well, you need more power, and more cabinets. Look around here in TB classifieds, you can find used Bergantino, and Aguillar 1x12 cabinets all day long. Those are some of the best cabinets made, IMHO, and you can get them for around 300 used. Pair that with a Markbass, or GB, or GK, and you have a pro bass rig on the cheap. Equipment that will cover nearly anything you want to do, with plenty of headroom, and that will last a lifetime.

Good luck

 

[Jack]

GK 1001rb, and again a 2x12 GK Neo would fit the bill, and has a nice agressive growl to it.

Man after my own heart. That's my rig and I'm still in love after almost 3 years.

 

[Tusec]

So apparently the number-of-speakers-versus-volume issue is one that's different between the bass world and the guitar world (where I come from). Because with guitar, adding speakers doesn't have much effect on volume. The power just divides between the speakers and the sum volume remains the same. But I know that when you get down into bass frequencies you start having problems with acoustical coupling between the speaker and the air, and I'm guessing more surface area -- i.e. more speakers -- is the solution. Which means that for bass, unlike for guitar, more speakers does equal more volume. Is this correct?

 

[Rebecca]

I'll respond to this part. Essentially, the lower the frequency you're trying to reproduce with an amp and speakers, the more power from the amp it takes. Midrange is much easier to amplify, and also to hear. When you cut mids and boost bass, you're wasting the power from your amp trying to push those low frequencies. The result is, it becomes harder to hear the bass, as well as being harder on the speakers, (they'll fart out easier at lower frequencies). So, the key to being heard, AND having great tone, is having enough power to push the load through enough speakers to hear it-usually meaning the amps eq section is set almost flat, with only minor tweaks to frequencies that are causing problems. This could be cut, rather than boost.
Lots of good advice here, (this thread)- you'll put a great rig together, I'm sure, so best of luck.

Thanks. That was very clear and seems to explain some of the effects I was noticing.

I appreciate all the good advice. Given that I'm just starting and have no idea what kinds of gigs may or may not be in my future, I'm leaning towards something middle of the pack at this point. I realize that, just like with basses, I'm probably looking for my next amp, not my last amp. So I'm back to thinking a 600watt head, but more cab than I first thought, at least 2X12, either as one unit or as two separate, and accepting that I may want to grow that at some point.

I'll take the advice to try some things out, but given the other comments regarding how what I hear in front of the cab won't be the way it sounds to the audience and it won't tell me about how it comes through the mix, and the fact that some of what I want to hear isn't in any area stores, I'm not going to limit myself to only considering what I can test for myself. At some point, I'll probably just plunge. It's what I did in buying my bass (through the TB classifieds) and I couldn't be happier with it. At this point, if the stuff is good, I don't need it to be exactly my taste, because my taste is still developing. There's somethings I really dislike, but there's a lot more that I just think "that's interesting, wonder what I could do with that?"

But, again, thanks to everyone for all the input. Part of the learning curve. But I think I'm going to leave the question on the back burner for a bit because I've got some bass lines to figure out.

 

[JimmyM]

So apparently the number-of-speakers-versus-volume issue is one that's different between the bass world and the guitar world (where I come from). Because with guitar, adding speakers doesn't have much effect on volume. The power just divides between the speakers and the sum volume remains the same. But I know that when you get down into bass frequencies you start having problems with acoustical coupling between the speaker and the air, and I'm guessing more surface area -- i.e. more speakers -- is the solution. Which means that for bass, unlike for guitar, more speakers does equal more volume. Is this correct?

nope. it works just the same with guitar as it does on bass. any time you double your speakers you get almost double the volume.

 

[Jack]

nope. it works just the same with guitar as it does on bass. any time you double your speakers you get almost double the volume.

Actually, doubling speaker surface area (with all other things being equal) will give a 3db gain.

 

[newbold]

and +3dB sounds almost twice as loud.

 

[newbold]

a 210, 212, or 15/8 should be adequate but a single 10 or 12 will not.

 

[butchblack]

Is your 300w amp giving the full 300 watts at 8 ohms? Chances are your 1x15 is an 8 ohm load...so if your 300w amp is 300 watts at 4 ohms, you're only sending 150 to an 8 ohm speaker.

I had that problem with my first real rig and not knowing much about amps. I had an Acoustic model 220 going into a 115 Thiele style cab with a JBL E140. The problem was two fold. First the amp was rated at 220 W ...at 2Ω, Second was that the power rating was at 10% THD, I couldn't turn it past 5 without the signal distorting and getting farting sounds out of the cab. I was only putting out 80W usable.

You don't mention what brand head and cab you have at the practice spot. Some heads just sound better then others. From your EQ settings I'm guessing you're looking for a real dark almost muddy more feel then hear tone, some heads just won't give you that. I use a Peavey 60W bass amp at practice and no matter how I set the EQ It's not deep enough for me. If you're going for that deep dark tone I'd try turning the treble down on the bass and maybe 9 O'Clock on the amp. Set the bass at 12 o'clock and adjust your low and high mids to get your tone. Maybe change to flats if you're running rounds. I also find it impossible to hear my tone and volume on stage close to the amp. Get a musician friend to listen mid way or further in the room or better yet have a bass playing friend play your bass and rig while you listen from the room. 300W should be fine, more is usually better. If you're not locked into the GB you might want to look at either the GK MB2 or the MB210 combo. Lots of lows 350W @ 8Ω, 500W @4Ω. The 210 combo is the only on in that series that'll take an extension cab. Add a 212 or 410 if you need to push more air (volume) There's a good thread here on TB on the 210 and other MB combos. I love mine.

 

[babebambi]

and +3dB sounds almost twice as loud.

+10db is generally perceived as twice as loud by human

 

[waidonchasaisew]

I agree with an earlier post that a single 12" speaker will limit your volume. Might wanna try a 300-400W head with a 2x10 or 4x10 cab or something along those lines. You can't really do much with a single speaker (I gigged with a combo 12" and have since upgraded to a 4x10 rig).
Definitely try out the different possibilities because its all about preference. I prefer having a 2x10 cab support my low end and a 4x10 cab supporting my mid to high sounds.

 

[Sav'nBass]

I like my Shuttle 6 on a 212. Not too heavy.. big enough in the sound dept.. tomorrow I will be playing outdoors so that will be a big test. At one time I was thinking of going the 115-212 route.. but I have a 4ohm 212.. so for now I will just stay where I am.

I think the 6.0 is a better bet.. more versatility and more headroom. Remember though to watch the ohmage on the cabs. With a 6.0 you can either run 1 4ohm cab at 600W, one 8ohm cab at 375W, or 2 8ohm cabs at 600W (2 8ohm cabs will load out to 4 ohms) and that would also give you the full power of the amp but with more speaker area.. and that's where your sound comes from.. it isn't just the wattage of the head. At 4 ohms you are getting the full 600W power of that head. With one 8 ohm cab you will be getting 375W so say you got a 6.0 and one 8ohm 15" cab.. you would basically have the same setup you have now... but if you added another 8 ohm cab to that setup then you would get the full 600w from the head.

 

[elavate7]

if you like 12", you will definately have to double up. but whatever cab you decide to get, you definately wanna get 2 cabs. the more speakers you have, the more air you push.

 

[RickenBoogie]

I think the op is off to a good start. Soaked up all the knowledge from this thread, and will put an awesome bass rig together. Probably not her *last* rig, but certainly one that'll get her where she wants to be, right now. Good luck with it Rebecca, and have fun with it.

 

[Tusec]

3 dB is generally considered the smallest increment that most people can clearly discern. It's pretty subtle.

Here's the thing about speakers. Let's say you have a 100 watt amp and you've got it cranked through a single speaker. In this case the speaker is delivering 100 watts. Now let's say you crank it through two speakers. The 100 watts is now divided between the two speakers so that each is delivering 50 watts. Yes, you have two speakers now, but the total power delivered is the same: 100 watts. So there's no reason to expect an increase in volume based on power alone.

But what this doesn't take into account is acoustical coupling -- in other words how well the speaker(s) are actually able to get the air moving. At typical guitar frequencies, I think a single speaker is able to transfer the amplifier's power into the air very effectively. The reason 4x12 cabinets were invented back in the day wasn't to create more volume, but rather to keep speakers from blowing by dividing the power between multiple speakers.

But at bass frequencies, things are different. The long wavelengths require serious surface area to get the air moving. So the number of speakers actually does factor directly into the volume equation.

Or at least that's my non-expert take on it. You start getting into concepts like acoustical impedance matching (which is distinct from electrical impedance matching) with this stuff, at which point I only know enough to be dangerous.