Double Bass First Time Buyer Help

[bcpbass910]

I’m a professional electric bass player in the market for a beginner double bass - I went to look at this Engelhardt EC1 in person & am noticing a few things about it that seem slightly off. First, some hairline cracking at the heel of the neck. Second, the saddle that the tailpiece wraps around appears to be cracked pretty bad. Last, it looks like there was a home paint job applied to the bass. To my ear the sound of the bass was decent, low E string was maybe a bit quieter than I expected, especially compared to the A string, not as boomy/resonant as I was hoping. It did have a sound post that I regretfully didn’t take pictures of but it looked solid. Owner said it has not been touched by a luthier since he got it about 6 months ago.


I wanted to ask for advice on this bass and see if I could get some insight as to the quality/state of this bass, what the worth of a bass in this condition would be, if it would be worth investing in and if any of these issues are serious red flags. Again I am very much a beginner so any & all advice would be much appreciated!

 

[Ed S]

I'm not seeing anything really bad - except for what looks like a pretty awful paint job.

Some folk will come in to tell you Engles suck. I'm not one of them. IMO&E they are perfectly serviceable plys. A lot depends on personal taste. To my personal taste, I prefer my well setup Engle w/ guts to just about any other ply I've played - old or new.

I'm not seeing the heel cracks. Could they just be the finish? The saddle looks worn, rather than cracked. My Engle has developed some finish imperfections over the years. I don't really care if the finish is perfect on that bass, so I just had my wife touch them up to avoid rapid deterioration. And I should HOPE it has a soundpost.

It is not unusual IME for one string to sound less well than others. You can read many threads here about people trying to get more out of their Es. It does seem as though on many basses the A or the D really sings. Not sure how much that could be tweaked on setup, or how much it matters on most plys. But a decent look-over/setup sure couldn't hurt. Maybe a nice adjustable bridge.

I'll repeat my opinion that a decent Engle is pretty much a $1,000 instrument. Some variation depending on location, urgency of need, etc. I'd say somewhat/considerably less for this one given that finish.

If I were in a location where decent basses came up for sale with some regularity, and if I had a budget that did not require that I seek as low a price as possible, I'd probably pass on this one. Just because I personally find the finish unattractive. And IMO, it helps to have an instrument I like the looks of, to encourage me to play it.

Good luck on your journey to the dark side, my friend!

 

[834federal]

I'm not seeing anything really bad - except for what looks like a pretty awful paint job.

Some folk will come in to tell you Engles suck. I'm not one of them. IMO&E they are perfectly serviceable plys. A lot depends on personal taste. To my personal taste, I prefer my well setup Engle w/ guts to just about any other ply I've played - old or new.

I'm not seeing the heel cracks. Could they just be the finish? The saddle looks worn, rather than cracked. My Engle has developed some finish imperfections over the years. I don't really care if the finish is perfect on that bass, so I just had my wife touch them up to avoid rapid deterioration. And I should HOPE it has a soundpost.

It is not unusual IME for one string to sound less well than others. You can read many threads here about people trying to get more out of their Es. It does seem as though on many basses the A or the D really sings. Not sure how much that could be tweaked on setup, or how much it matters on most plys. But a decent look-over/setup sure couldn't hurt. Maybe a nice adjustable bridge.

I'll repeat my opinion that a decent Engle is pretty much a $1,000 instrument. Some variation depending on location, urgency of need, etc. I'd say somewhat/considerably less for this one given that finish.

If I were in a location where decent basses came up for sale with some regularity, and if I had a budget that did not require that I seek as low a price as possible, I'd probably pass on this one. Just because I personally find the finish unattractive. And IMO, it helps to have an instrument I like the looks of, to encourage me to play it.

Good luck on your journey to the dark side, my friend!

i agree

 

[Stuart.C]

That bass look's fine structurally, at least I don't see any cracks.

low E string was maybe a bit quieter than I expected

This would be my reason to pass on this bass, or at least go try others first.

Resonate full sounding low notes is kinda what separates the wheat from the chaff in basses, and in general is not something you can tweak with strings and setup, it's inherent to the bass itself. (I know from experience)

I would recommend go try basses in the $10K-$50K range just to hear and feel what a fine setup should be like, then you'll have a better idea of what compromises your making on the lower end.

Also getting to know your closest luthier has many benefits

 

[Ben Noblit]

That bass looks fine structurally. Engles are the definition of a beater bass, they’re tough and do one thing (low mid thump) well. A weak E is unfortunately a characteristic of most of them. What is your location and genre goals? That’ll help our advice.

 

[Don Hergert]

... low E string was maybe a bit quieter than I expected ...

Being an acoustic instrument, strings and setup make a huge difference with tone and volume on a double bass. In particular, the type, age and condition of the strings and the sound post and action setup work together a lot to make the instrument sound the way it sounds.

I couldn't specifically identify the strings as pictured, a well lit close-up of the string "silks" as they leave the tailpiece and as they go into the tuner posts would help with that. Changing string types is a common process in the search for just the right sound; but good strings can be expensive and can take time to break in, and truly objective hearing takes a while to achieve -- in other words strings can be a rabbit-hole.

If this is a double bass that you are attached to, having it checked out by an experienced double bass luthier would at least verify if it is in good shape for you. The neck joint "looks" ok, but that's one of the most vulnerable areas on a double bass, one that can cause trouble and cost money to get repaired properly. Knowing what you're getting into is often worth the cost of getting a health check.

 

[EdwardofHuncote]

It looks structurally sound in your pictures. As already posted, inspect the neck joint well. Look closely around the edges for seam separations. Check to see how much relief the neck has. Listen for internal rattles indicating a loose bass bar. Those four are walk-aways.

Here's why the paintbrush villain is a reason to look it over real good, or have someone else do it. They didn't even take the bridge or tailpiece off before sloppin' that mess on there - just painted around them. Sort of. At some point in it's life, a goofball was in possession of this bass. And anyone who paints an upright bass with a bucket and brush, without even bothering to unstring it... it's hard to tell what else you might find. Maybe nothing. Maybe the Lindbergh baby. Maybe some of @james condino 's luthier's tears.

If you can score a good deal on it, plan to budget for a new bridge, strings, and probably soundpost fit, and have it setup. I'd shoot for <$800 where I am, but I can do the work myself. It could be a winner on the cheap. Good luck.

 

[marcox]

Reduced response on lower strings can be a sign that the bass bar is beginning to detach. Get a goose-neck automotive mirror and confirm that the bass bar is attached at both ends.

 

[Dave Leighton]

The one thing I can say about my 77 Engelhardt is that it is very equal in sound level/projection across all 4 strings.

 

[Ed S]

The one thing I can say about my 77 Engelhardt is that it is very equal in sound level/projection across all 4 strings.

88000 serial # makes it 05-06 - for whatever that is worth. Not sure there was ever a "classic era" for Engles, tho I have seen some sellers of early ones try to suggest as much. Saying they are "essentially Kays." Of course, there are those who dislike Kays.

 

[Stuart.C]

Owner said it has not been touched by a luthier since he got it about 6 months ago

Just wanted to point out this red flag as well.
Not the luthier part but the seller wanting to pass it off after 6 months

 

[Paul New]

88000 serial # makes it 05-06 - for whatever that is worth. Not sure there was ever a "classic era" for Engles, tho I have seen some sellers of early ones try to suggest as much. Saying they are "essentially Kays." Of course, there are those who dislike Kays.

Recently it’s been discovered that Engelhardt had been importing tops and backs from Asia instead of shaping them on the old Kay molds, so I don’t know if we can still say they are just like Kays. Even when they were using the molds they cut corners, like omitting the exterior linings, etc…

Still, the only thing that worries me is the talk of cracking at the heel, which I don’t see in the photos. As always, it needs to be examined by someone who knows basses before ANY spending money. And it is going to need professional attention to be usable, and that’s not cheap.

 

[Dave Leighton]

88000 serial # makes it 05-06 - for whatever that is worth. Not sure there was ever a "classic era" for Engles, tho I have seen some sellers of early ones try to suggest as much. Saying they are "essentially Kays." Of course, there are those who dislike Kays

I could have omitted the year. My point was mine has an E that sounds fine.

 

[Ed S]

I could have omitted the year. My point was mine has an E that sounds fine.

I understand. Just fleshing out the info about this bass. And I have seen sellers suggesting that early Engles are essentially late Kays. Which some around here will say are both crap!

My E booms just fine. Tho I think my D and A sing a little clearer.

 

[bass player 53]

I don’t see any major red flags. If you can get it at a low to reasonable price, and nothing comparable is around, buy it. If you can play it comfortably, play it. If not, take it to a luthier to set it up for you. I take it that you’re not looking at an orchestral career, so don’t worry so much about the sound. Good pickups, preamps, and eq boxes, such as the Empress Bass parametric pedal can help fix that. Take some double bass lessons, with or without the bow with a pro to learn to properly get around the fingerboard and produce sound with the right hand.
BTW, the other advice given in this thread already is solid, but it’s easy to overthink, over analyze, and develop analysis paralysis. Generations of school kids have learned to play the bass fiddle on far worse instruments, and lived to tell about it. For you, comfort is the key, in my opinion.

 

[Mark_T]

Couldn't a weak E be an improperly fit or placed soundpost? The cut of the bridge suggests the setup is inexpert at best. I agree that I don't see structural issues although the sloppily applied paint may make spotting issues in photos a bit harder.

 

[SAlcott]

$5-600 tops, purchase price, with at least another $5-600 for setup, (bridge work, tailgut, saddle, fingerboard dressing),strings, pickup....

It's a plywood bass-a strong fundamental E string isn't in it, but that will actually make it easier to amplify.

 

[marcox]

I take it that you’re not looking at an orchestral career, so don’t worry so much about the sound.

C'mon, acoustic "sound" is why we play these big beasts, rather than a bass guitar. And if the OP is at all interested in bluegrass or folk, he'll be expected to play unamplified in the jams around which those scenes revolve.

 

[bass player 53]

C'mon, acoustic "sound" is why we play these big beasts, rather than a bass guitar. And if the OP is at all interested in bluegrass or folk, he'll be expected to play unamplified in the jams around which those scenes revolve.

The bass fiddle evolved from the bowed family of string instruments. By design, a single bass doesn’t produce much volume, even bowed, which is why an orchestra section has 10-12 of them. Unamplified is fine for a handful of players in a jam, but any stage volume requires a microphone or pickup. The OP’s potential bass, from a speculative look will put out enough sound for the jam. From his briefly stated bio, I concluded that folk and
bluegrass is not his ‘jam’ or m.o.

 

[bcpbass910]

Wow.. I want to first say thank you for the support and generosity of knowledge/expertise you all have been so kind to share on here. Makes me even more excited to be joining “the dark side” ha. Means a lot & thanks for everyone contributing to this discussion.

I live in Memphis, TN, and will be doing mostly 50’s and 60’s Rhythm n’ Blues and Blues stylings of play, so pizzicato. I don’t anticipate ever using a bow, and I do think I would always be using an amplifier when I finally get around to bringing it out to gigs.

As far as the owner’s desire to sell after having it a short period, he has to move back to Washington where he was living for a while before & he’s trying to offload as much gear as he can as he’ll be moving into a much smaller space. Otherwise he would have held onto it. Seems a legitimate reason to sell. He does seem to like this instrument, but like me he’s very much a beginner, and also he’s trying to make a sale, so taking that with a grain of salt.

It sounds like if I want to move forward in any capacity, I should have this bass looked over by a legitimate luthier, and should see if I could respectfully talk seller down in price especially considering work that would need to go into getting it setup properly. I do think the sound of the bass is solid for a starter, and like others have mentioned if I’m amplifying it that will help with manipulation of the sound. It did feel comfortable to play, and with a proper set up and bridge, etc, I’m sure that would only improve playability. The finish is pretty ugly, but that wouldn’t distract from my desire to play it. Might be a different story once I start taking it out haha. Overall I think I could do worse but will weigh options.



Thanks again to everyone for the help!