Double Bass Fishman Full Circle to replace my K&K Bass Max?

[armybass]

I’m thinking of replacing my Bass Max with a Full Circle. I’ve never used the FC but lots of players I like use them and I like the tones those players get. I also use the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ as my preamp and assume they will work well together.

I'm interested in opinions on the FC and particularly opinions on the FC vs the Bass Max.

thanks so much.

 

[B String]

Well... I've never really liked the Bass Max at all. Having said that, it's all about the sound that YOU like. I have a number of options. Full Circle, Lifeline, KND, Underwood, and more, depending on the music and the bass, I've always favored the FC, with the Lifeline coming in right behind it. The KND is good for emergencies. Quick and easy to put on. The Realist is also low on my list. But again, on "some" basses it works well, just not mine.

 

[james condino]

Before you spend any $$$, have you tried the K&K mounted on the treble wing? It helps to lessen the muddy qualities that sometimes occur mounting it on the bass side bridge wing.

If you are going to spend more $$$ on another piezo pickup, give the $35 Vic's a try before you drop several hundred on the Full Circle. I like the Full Circle, but it is extremely fragile and very sensitive to subtle adjustments.

I own 6 different mic and pickup systems and to be honest, none of them works perfect for every situation. As much as we obsess over the small details, unfortunately it is just me and one other bass nerd in the audience that even notice.. Everyone else just looks for a reasonable sounding low boom boom boom with good timing....

 

[neddyrow]

i had a bassmax on my first couple basses. didn't think that was hifi enough (maybe the guys here on TB with all their fancy stuff made me think that way). after trying several mics and a full circle, i am back to the bassmax on all my basses plus i have a 3rd as a backup in my bag. with the right preamp or, black box, in my case, plus the right amp/cab setup, the bassmax can be the right choice.

 

[Don Hergert]

... depending on the music and the bass ...

give the $35 Vic's a try

... it is just me and one other bass nerd in the audience that even notice ...

... with the right preamp or, black box ...

^^These^^

It sounds like you've been around this rabbit hole a bit already, I'm only 2 years in with it and while I've heard a full-circle in the audience, I've never tried one. But already I've installed both a Vic's (with a pre-amp) and a mic (clear), and seem to be doing pretty well with both.

Having not poured funds into an up-scale amp yet, I'd observe (1) that my touch, strings and setup, and also what's further downstream from my pickups/pre-amp and mic have a huge effect on tone, and (2) I can never know exactly how I sound plugged-in, to the audience, because I can't play plugged-in and be in the audience at the same time...

And mostly (3) regarding pickups and mics and pre-amps and amps and every other kind of signal-chain gadget available, there's more of them than I have time or money to try out.

So I'd suggest follow your heart and ears, and settle in with something to use for as long as possible, get your touch, your setup and your strings working as well as possible with it, and then only if necessary move on to something else.

Good luck!!!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I've used both pickups - including a custom "stereo Bass Max" way back in the day. The Full Circle replaced the Bass Max probably 15 or so years ago and I've never looked back. While I've heard others complain of the cable being fragile, I don't remember ever having a problem with one.

The one bit of experience with maintenance I can share is that piezo crystals degrade under pressure over time. In the 15 years I've been using the FC on both of my basses, I've replaced one on each bass at about the 8 year mark. So in this sense, I look at it like a tire change: eventually inevitable, but not traumatic or a big deal.

 

[elmer]

+1 for Chris, my newer Full Circle is soon eleven years old with zero issues. It´s not "extremely fragile" if you treat it well

 

[armybass]

I've used both pickups - including a custom "stereo Bass Max" way back in the day. The Full Circle replaced the Bass Max probably 15 or so years ago and I've never looked back. While I've heard others complain of the cable being fragile, I don't remember ever having a problem with one.

The one bit of experience with maintenance I can share is that piezo crystals degrade under pressure over time. In the 15 years I've been using the FC on both of my basses, I've replaced one on each bass at about the 8 year mark. So in this sense, I look at it like a tire change: eventually inevitable, but not traumatic or a big deal.

so how would you compare them? What do you like better about the FC? The sound?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@armybass The Full Circle seems to have a much more natural representation of the sound than the Bass Max. The Bass Max is more stringy up top (which I always had to roll off a bit with EQ) and more thick and "rubbery" (for lack of a better term) on the bottom end.

In general, my theory of pickups has come to be that there is a spectrum from "under the bass foot/farthest from the strings" to "nearest the bridge crown/furthest from the top" that usually roughly corresponds to a "dark/muffled" sound near the top (i.e. think "Realist") to a "bright/scratchy" sound near the bridge crown (i.e. think "Fishman BP 100"). Pickups like the various bridge wing pickups are in between, but they are usually closer to the crown than to the top, and they also suffer from more variability of pressure on the element since they sound different when you move them.

Pickups like the Full Circle and Yamahiko and Wilson K-1 are closer to the top than the crown, but not so close that they sound muffled and "wooly" like I hear the Realist as being. I think it's probably the ideal spot for a pizz pickup for the kind of sound I'm after.

The one thing that almost all pickups do that I feel has to be mitigated is to excessively amplify the fundamental of the lowest notes. The string length and body size of the double bass acts like a built in acoustic high pass filter for these lowest pitches, so the sound we are accustomed to hearing from an unamplified DB de-emphasizes the fundamental and favors the first partial of the lowest notes. But pickups only sense vibration and don't make this distinction; they simply amplify the frequency they register. For this reason, I think most pickups benefit from a high pass filter.

In my experience, the Full Circle is the pickup that requires the least amount of EQ once the high pass filter is dialed in. For me, using it and the PJB combos that I use, it means that I can set the HP filter and leave the rest set flat, which simplifies things greatly.

 

[armybass]

Good gawd man that is brilliant @Chris Fitzgerald ! It makes perfect sense but I never would have been able to express it that clearly never mind figuring it out on my own. I just know that when listening to other players, the folks with the FC seemed to have the best sound. Almost no “pickup” sound. Just sounded like the bass. I wish I could get a class from you on low pass filters.... I’m kind of ignorant to what they are and how to use them. I have one built into my Fishman Platinum Pro Preamp but I don’t know how to use it.
But I’m going to get a FC put on my bass Tuesday and I look forward to gigging it soon.

Thanks for your time and your input. Much appreciated Chris!

@armybass The Full Circle seems to have a much more natural representation of the sound than the Bass Max. The Bass Max is more stringer up top (which I always had to roll off a bit with EQ) and more thick and "rubbery" (for lack of a better term) on the bottom end.

In general, my theory of pickups has come to be that there is a spectrum from "under the bass foot/farthest from the strings" to "nearest the bridge crown/furthest from the top" that usually roughly corresponds to a "dark/muffled" sound near the top (i.e. think "Realist") to a "bright/scratchy" sound near the bridge crown (i.e. think "Fishman BP 100"). Pickups like the various bridge wing pickups are in between, but they are usually closer to the crown than to the top, and they also suffer from more variability of pressure on the element since they sound different when you move them.

Pickups like the Full Circle and Yamahiko and Wilson K-1 are closer to the top than the crown, but not so close that they sound muffled and "wooly" like I hear the Realist as being. I think it's probably the ideal spot for a pizz pickup for the kind of sound I'm after.

The one thing that almost all pickups do that I feel has to be mitigated is to excessively amplify the fundamental of the lowest notes. The string length and body size of the double bass acts like a built in acoustic high pass filter for these lowest pitches, so the sound we are accustomed to hearing from an unamplified DB de-emphasizes the fundamental and favors the first partial of the lowest notes. But pickups only sense vibration and don't make this distinction; they simply amplify the frequency they register. For this reason, I think most pickups benefit from a high pass filter.

In my experience, the Full Circle is the pickup that requires the least amount of EQ once the high pass filter is dialed in. For me, using it and the PJB combos that I use, it means that I can set the HP filter and leave the rest set flat, which simplifies things greatly.

 

[winston]

@ Chris Fitzgerald - very eloquently put! I ended up with a Full Circle on my bass (New Standard Cleveland ply) - it came with a Realist, and I also have had Fishman BP-100, BassMax, Underwood, Upton Revolution, and Schertler Stat-B over the years.

Full Circle is the best overall to my ears - big but not woofy, bright enough but not harsh; responds well to HPF/preamp but doesn't absolutely need one. Doesn't affect the acoustic response either. Realist was way too dark on this huge-sounding bass. IME, anything in a bridge wing is a compromise. Pressure/fit are key, and this changes with weather, strings. And I can always feel/hear that something in the bridge wing affects the acoustic response of the bass, even if only by dampening it a few %. Honestly, the BassMax was the most consistent of the wing pickups I tried, I have an unscientific theory that the rubber filters out some of the harshest frequencies, especially for arco. Stat-B could sound phenomenal but the mounting scheme with the cork wasn't very robust.

There was a maybe 3 week period one summer where the Underwood sounded truly phenomenal on my bass, and the phase cancellation between the two elements cut low mids and accentuated upper mids to give it a most appealing growl. Then the weather changed and it just sounded scratchy.

 

[Jefenator]

I've been fully content with the Full Circle as well as the Realist and the Lifeline - I'll use any of those till they wear out.
I tried the Bass Max and sold it after a week. Just didn't seem to have the fidelity or presence I am accustomed to. (As always YMMV.)

 

[210superair]

I also dig my realist, but it's getting long in tooth, and I do believe you guys have talked me into trying the full circle after it poops out...

I'm running the k&k on my other bass, and both basses have the rockabilly preamp with the clickity pickup. I don't love the wing pickup sound wise, but for what I do it seems reliable and easy, and I don't need to sweat the sound as much as some of you guys, playing the kind of stuff I currently do. It ain't quite orchestra, lol...

 

[jmlee]

In 20 years with a Full Circle I’ve had two failures: one gradual which I took to be a piezo element delamination, and the other because some kittens we were fostering chewed the wire off. Very satisfied other than a bit of a thunky open A string.

Some years ago I had both a K&K Bass Max and their Double Big Twin (they call it their Bass Master Pro set up) on a nice little Strunal hybrid. The combination was much more satisfying than the Bass Max alone, adding a lot more string articulation detail. The whole set-up was a bit of a fiddle but quite OK.

 

[basss]

I'm still using the same Full Circle I bought right after they first came out (knock on wood). As to the fragility: when turning the pickup to adjust string height the wire can twist. I find I need to take the jack off and unwind the wire. Maybe this is obvious, but could explain some of the failures?

 

[BobbyT]

I’ve had both on my Strunal plywood for years. I preferred the tone of the Full Circle; it was much more natural and balanced, both with and without a preamp.

The Bass Max is more electric sounding, and is basically worthless without a preamp. I mount it on the treble side as others have noted.

My Full Circle died on me a few years back, and the Bass Max still works, so that’s what I use these days. I do miss the FC, though...

 

[leonard]

@armybass The Full Circle seems to have a much more natural representation of the sound than the Bass Max. The Bass Max is more stringer up top (which I always had to roll off a bit with EQ) and more thick and "rubbery" (for lack of a better term) on the bottom end.

In general, my theory of pickups has come to be that there is a spectrum from "under the bass foot/farthest from the strings" to "nearest the bridge crown/furthest from the top" that usually roughly corresponds to a "dark/muffled" sound near the top (i.e. think "Realist") to a "bright/scratchy" sound near the bridge crown (i.e. think "Fishman BP 100"). Pickups like the various bridge wing pickups are in between, but they are usually closer to the crown than to the top, and they also suffer from more variability of pressure on the element since they sound different when you move them.

Pickups like the Full Circle and Yamahiko and Wilson K-1 are closer to the top than the crown, but not so close that they sound muffled and "wooly" like I hear the Realist as being. I think it's probably the ideal spot for a pizz pickup for the kind of sound I'm after.

The one thing that almost all pickups do that I feel has to be mitigated is to excessively amplify the fundamental of the lowest notes. The string length and body size of the double bass acts like a built in acoustic high pass filter for these lowest pitches, so the sound we are accustomed to hearing from an unamplified DB de-emphasizes the fundamental and favors the first partial of the lowest notes. But pickups only sense vibration and don't make this distinction; they simply amplify the frequency they register. For this reason, I think most pickups benefit from a high pass filter.

In my experience, the Full Circle is the pickup that requires the least amount of EQ once the high pass filter is dialed in. For me, using it and the PJB combos that I use, it means that I can set the HP filter and leave the rest set flat, which simplifies things greatly.

This post needs to be on a FAQ or WIKI of some kind. It answers so many questions.

 

[petercb]

The FC product page on Fishman says an impedance matching preamp is "recommended but not required." I've ordered an FC and wonder how necessary it will be to acquire a preamp of some kind.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

What is the input impedance of your regular amp? If it is 1MegOhm or higher, you should be just fine.

 

[Ric Vice]

The one thing that almost all pickups do that I feel has to be mitigated is to excessively amplify the fundamental of the lowest notes. The string length and body size of the double bass acts like a built in acoustic high pass filter for these lowest pitches, so the sound we are accustomed to hearing from an unamplified DB de-emphasizes the fundamental and favors the first partial of the lowest notes. But pickups only sense vibration and don't make this distinction; they simply amplify the frequency they register. For this reason, I think most pickups benefit from a high pass filter.

That's the one thing I absolutely love about the Grace Designs Felix, as it puts the HPF first in the preamps signal path before it hits any of the tone controls. Using the FDeck does the same thing. I've always wondered if there is a way to design a piezo pickup's frequency response, so that it

essentially ignores the fundamental or if that would even work. I've always found that my little Mirecourt 5/8's bass simply doesn't have the low end fundamentals that a standard 3/4 size bass does and the Ehrlund EAP doesn't emphasize the fundamental like the Realist does. All in all because of

the Graces HPF, a smaller bass and a pickup that doesn't emphasize the fundamental as much, my bass is easier to amplify. I also think that when a pickup emphasizes that fundamental, increasing the volume control boosts that fundamental exponentially, so it will get out of hand and feedback

faster the more you turn up the volume. Just my take however.