Flats and playing live

[lowfreqgeek]

I didn't see anyone else address your right hand technique (sorry if I missed that - I didn't read every page). IME, flats sound their best with a solid right hand attack. Solid doesn't mean "loud" or "hard", but it does mean quick and sure. Flats can get lost easily when the attack is soft and slow, or played without much confidence. Using a pick is one way to ensure a quick attack, but fingers can easily achieve similar results.

As I've told students in the past, you have to "play through the string". Your plucking finger should follow through the string after the initial contact. The less time your finger touches the string, the more punch the note will have.

All the other stuff about the mix and EQ is completely valid, but the right hand attack is almost entirely responsible for the punch that we associate with flats, and that punch is what will get the bass heard in the mix.

 

[spencer096]

it seems a lot of the people having trouble with flats are playing in church groups...

 

[TrevorR]

it seems a lot of the people having trouble with flats are playing in church groups...

View attachment 3291041

This one has no trouble at all and LOVES his flats!

 

[Doug4321]

it seems a lot of the people having trouble with flats are playing in church groups...

View attachment 3291041

Ha ha. Let all instruments become one within the all encompassing bass hum.

 

[GIBrat51]

Sorry, but... changing strings isn't going to help you. From what you describe, you're in a sonic gunfight - and you showed up with a knife. And, in all honesty.. unless you get several other people to get out of "your" space? They don't need you... Bass guitars, among other things, are supposed to fill that sonic space for groups that don't have what you're competing with. So, you need to either get them to give you your space - however you can manage it - or, see if they need, say, a triangle player...
And, yes, it's perfectly possible that what you're hearing on stage is not what the audience is hearing. Very likely, in fact. In the early '70s, I went round and round with the band I was the sound guy/roadie/substitute bass player for, over that very thing. It took dragging them, one by one, out into the audience, and finally, recording them (not easy at the time, either), to convince them that I was right. So, get some feedback from your audience to make sure that you really are the Invisible Man. If that's the case, get the sound people to fix it; and get the other people out of your space. If it's actually not the case? Use the strings you like; and personally, I like flats. When I had to play in our band, the bass had old flats of some kind on it (it wasn't mine), and nobody ever said they couldn't hear me...

 

[J-Mags]

Heavy, with the organist using foot pedals consistently.

If possible, I'd suggest getting together to practice a bit with the organ player. Work on some parts so you can stay out of each other's way. A bass part and an organ pedal part, played conventionally are an either/or thing. It's why the classic jazz organ trios were organ/guitar/drums. It's not your strings - although if you changed your parts to slapping/popping or trying to fit into a baritone guitar range, you might be heard better and that might require different strings. But if the Organ player will sit down with you, even if you just come to a detente and nothing much changes, you'll have a tighter organ/bass sound and it'll be more satisfying for you.

 

[Bass4Gsus]

My main gig is at a church. So a lot of organ, synth, piano, drums, guitar with heavy effects, etc. A very dense mix for sure.

Everybody is stepping on each other's frequencies. It is likely that everyone is playing as if they are the only ones playing and each is filling up the all the frequencies, and you only have the low end and share it with everyone else. Everyone needs to learn how to play in a group setting. Paul Baloche has a series of videos for church musicians called worship workshop. Search on YouTube for "Paul Baloche worship workshop" The DVD's are still available on Amazon. There is one where is walks through each instrument and talks about their space in the mix basically and how they can be unique and stand out without stepping on other. If the members watch this by themselves it might go down easier. Norm Stockton also had a worship series directed only to bassists. He was at one time in some of the videos with Paul Baloche.

It is not easy to talk to the other members of a church worship team sometimes, and the DVD can help get the point across.

Also the sound board mix itself needs to be fine tuned also, but it starts with the musicians.

I play flats all the time, and sometimes the URB.

Just my 2 cents, good luck.

 

[RocknRay]

I disagree that tape wounds are dead sounding with little sustain. My experience with D'Addario ETB92 nylon tapewound strings on both a Standard P and a Mustang PJ is that they have a midrange presence unlike any other string and a good percussive thump. I've had more "I can hear you now" comments from players and listeners alike than with any other string. They also record well (low-tech, live). Disadvantages? A bit "rubbery" on the attack (no surprise, they are plastic covered steel round wounds) and single-coil hum due to no string (body) grounding...which is the fault of poorly shielded passive pickups, not of the string. The D'Addario You Tube clip does not do justice to these strings. They are capable of much more than the muffled thud with the tone control down all the way.

 

[esfusion]

Our praise band keys guy (and leader) does a good job staying out of my territory. I use TI flats, which are very balanced and not at all dead. When I need to get more front and center I emphasize the bridge pickup and pluck near the bridge as well. I EQ the bass with a reverse smiley (emphasize low mids, cut treble and low bass).

 

[Smoothmove]

You either love them or hate him.
Definitely an acquired taste.
I hate them IMHO.

 

[JimmyN2]

Let me start by saying I love flats. I have a set of Chromes on my Ibanez SR500 and love them. The feel, the sound, and even the tension just feels right to me. At home. In a live context? Complete disappointment. The warm and focused sound at home turns to mush and just gets buried under everything. I've tried EQ'ing every way I know how. No luck. Short of changing strings, what else can I do? I don't cut any mids on my amp or bass (I actually boost them quite a bit). Is this the fatal flaw of flatwounds? Is there a better flatwound I can use?

Hi I use flats on a Rick 4003, the bridge pickup only and the tone control open (no treble cut) eq on amp all at 12 o’clock except Bass and high treble which are rolled a little back to 11. Thumb picking near bridge and cuts through everything (4 piece brass section!) using Markbass cmd101p.

 

[Benny Bennett]

Let me start by saying I love flats. I have a set of Chromes on my Ibanez SR500 and love them. The feel, the sound, and even the tension just feels right to me. At home. In a live context? Complete disappointment. The warm and focused sound at home turns to mush and just gets buried under everything. I've tried EQ'ing every way I know how. No luck. Short of changing strings, what else can I do? I don't cut any mids on my amp or bass (I actually boost them quite a bit). Is this the fatal flaw of flatwounds? Is there a better flatwound I can use?

Have you tried tape wounds? I use them on all my basses, and don't notice any trouble. Everybody likes the wayt they sound, and no trouble out front.

 

[alpan254]

Mostly contemporary Christian Praise & Worship music. Typically with drums, 1-2 electric guitars (often overdriven), an acoustic guitar, a keyboard and a synth, along with 3-4 vocalists.



Flats tend to have a narrower sonic band to occupy, mostly down low and low-mid. It actually helps me stay out of the way of overdriven guitars.

Not all flats are created equal. I had the problem of being lost in the mix when I was using La Bella flats, but not so with the GHS, which have been on my P bass for the last six months.

By the way, I also use a Fender Jazz and an active Yamaha 5-string in church as well. They're both wearing the GHS Pressurewounds right now.

any body use flat set just try thomastik the best tone IMO

 

[alpan254]

guys try thomastik flats , if you like flat sound imo

 

[picker1974]

I just switched to flats on my Music Man SUB. Did two shows and I can honestly say it was an improvement. I bought a set of Ernie Ball Cobalts 105/55. Quite expensive at $38 (Guitar Center) if I remember correctly. I know they don’t get much love here on the forum but so far I like them. How they hold up in the long term remains to be seen. I play worship music in my church so I shoot for a warm smooth tone but without the deadness of dirty old rounds. They have a slightly increased “clang” sound that rounds normally have but nothing the tone knob can’t fix. They have a friendly feel to the fingers as well.

 

[mrufino1]

sounds like you guys just need to figure out where everything sits. flats should work in that setting.

Yes, yes, and yes. You're never "up against" other instruments and so if that's a view of anyone involved (my apologies to the person who used those words, you may be saying the same thing I'm saying, it just makes a great point) nothing will be working. No equipment fixes arrangement or teamwork issues.

One thing I find in churches a lot (I do a lot of church sound and played for years on similar situations) is "Sunday rock stars," where the object is to bring every pedal you acquire, every fancy guitar, etc, the use TONS of delay and distortion on everything, playing Barre chords low on the neck, while a keyboardist, who is often a solo concert pianist plays with all ten fingers at all times, and 5 people singing the same lead vocal, drummer who brings 5 crash cymbals, rototoms, loop and backing track setup, and 18" hi hats (yep, I have seen that one!)etc.... Oh, and the sound people who love to use every plugin slot and such on the digital board and turn all of the subs WAY up.


All with seemingly good intentions but not what an arrangement or team is built on. And because of politics, etc, letting someone know a part isn't working can be taken as a personal insult. We've all been at fault at times, haven't we? But if you last in music, it's because eventually it figure these things out or take your lumps and begrudgingly take advice, only to be glad for it later.

Just my two cents.

 

[Night Rider]

Do you have a set you would recommend? I never see any sets outside of talkbass, except for the Dadarrio Black Nylons at GC.

My best tapewounds are the fender 9120. I have them on all my basses since 2010, and I think they're great.

 

[nick verbic]

Let me start by saying I love flats. I have a set of Chromes on my Ibanez SR500 and love them. The feel, the sound, and even the tension just feels right to me. At home. In a live context? Complete disappointment. The warm and focused sound at home turns to mush and just gets buried under everything. I've tried EQ'ing every way I know how. No luck. Short of changing strings, what else can I do? I don't cut any mids on my amp or bass (I actually boost them quite a bit). Is this the fatal flaw of flatwounds? Is there a better flatwound I can use?

Ernie Ball "Cobalts"...

 

[coolhang]

Consider trying these:

 

[Pete Langford]

Let me start by saying I love flats. I have a set of Chromes on my Ibanez SR500 and love them. The feel, the sound, and even the tension just feels right to me. At home. In a live context? Complete disappointment. The warm and focused sound at home turns to mush and just gets buried under everything. I've tried EQ'ing every way I know how. No luck. Short of changing strings, what else can I do? I don't cut any mids on my amp or bass (I actually boost them quite a bit). Is this the fatal flaw of flatwounds? Is there a better flatwound I can use?

Try the Thomastic Jazz Flats. They kill with tone.