Never heard of those...
Never heard, indeed. No words can truly describe the proper punch of Coldcock. If never heard, you'll never know punch. It's all just talk unless they're the flats called Coldcock.
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Flats with punch?
- Thread starter Phaidrus
- Start date
Never heard, indeed. No words can truly describe the proper punch of Coldcock. If never heard, you'll never know punch. It's all just talk unless they're the flats called Coldcock.
In terms of subtractive synthesis, punch objectively means a t least for synth guys, is when the envelope of the note is a fast attack. ADSR, Attack Decay release, sustain. For me bass punch is a fast Attack, and a shorter decay and a lower resonant frequency mixed in with a complex harmonic content / some same noise - again adding to the percussive nature of the tone, otherwise it is just a thud. Also you need some sustain before the decay phase starts and in string instruments they decay phase starts very quickly, punchier strings elongate the sustain phase a little longer and the best way to see this is when you palm mute or use foam/ I think punch also refers to lower frequencies. Mid to high -- the term snap comes into play. Headphone guys use the word slam low end slam in particular.
In my work with digital signals, we also talk about the rising and falling edges of a square wave and punch also refers to a steeper angle of these edges
In my work with digital signals, we also talk about the rising and falling edges of a square wave and punch also refers to a steeper angle of these edges
Of the flats I've used (TI, GHS, D'Addario, EB Slinkys, etc.) I like La Bella Low Tension Flats the best. I've used them on active and passive basses (they really kill on a passive bass through a good compressor). They are not "thuddy" imho. Soundwise I would liken them to the tone of the bass on Supertramp's Breakfast In America album (which was a Stingray w/ flats): really strong fundamental, round and punchy--at least that's what I get out of them. YMMV.
I’m going to need a T-shirt made out of this post.
As for suggestion, having put flats on a bass that you normally do not put flats on - a 6 string bass with 36 inch scale and a Mike pope 4 band EQ (GHS Precision flats and Brite Flats that has mellowed (not exactly flats), the Brite Flats are definitely punchier than the GHS.
THE GHS Precision to me are the punchiest of true flats but only if I do not do the light touch low action thing, which I do with almost all my bass. Played softly they bloom a bit and are mellow sounding too. The 52 alloy, higher tension and my preference for higher action, GHS just beats all the flats I've tried - EB, TI, Fender, DR, DA Chromes, Dunlop in terms of that percussive punch. Having said that I settled for DR Legends on my one fretted Jazz bass.
I use the GHS for my short scale Charlie Hunter type Hybrid (3 bass strings and 4 guitar strings) Because it is just better for thumb playing and has a higher headroom. I enjoyed them on my 6 string bass as well. They even get better with higher tension. On the Short scale they are tuned to a G a third up and on the 36 inch scale, well it is 36 inch scale meaning they are higher tension.
But you should try brite flats or similar groundwound strings from other brands if flats are not punchy enough for you.
THE GHS Precision to me are the punchiest of true flats but only if I do not do the light touch low action thing, which I do with almost all my bass. Played softly they bloom a bit and are mellow sounding too. The 52 alloy, higher tension and my preference for higher action, GHS just beats all the flats I've tried - EB, TI, Fender, DR, DA Chromes, Dunlop in terms of that percussive punch. Having said that I settled for DR Legends on my one fretted Jazz bass.
I use the GHS for my short scale Charlie Hunter type Hybrid (3 bass strings and 4 guitar strings) Because it is just better for thumb playing and has a higher headroom. I enjoyed them on my 6 string bass as well. They even get better with higher tension. On the Short scale they are tuned to a G a third up and on the 36 inch scale, well it is 36 inch scale meaning they are higher tension.
But you should try brite flats or similar groundwound strings from other brands if flats are not punchy enough for you.
I’ve been on the hunt for a mute that adds sustain and brightness.
I've tried a LOT of flats. I own 26- or is it 27 now? lol.. basses, and I'd say most are strung with flats now. Why? Well, I find that they are more suited to my old school with a bit of English roundwound tone influences -sound. They just feel great, and certain sets just stay on the bass for a lot longer than the sometimes pricey round wounds I was using- that sound awful to my ears, and feel terrible as they become metal fatigued and dead.
I'm also as some of you know, a bass tech, and Luthier. My current favorite flat wound sets are, in this order:
1.Ernie Ball Slinky (Cobalt) flats. The low 'B' is easily the only low 'B' flat wound I've heard that doesn't sound disappointing and not as good as the other strings in the set. GREAT sounding set of strings!
2. Fender 9050 ML- these are the best series of Fender flats ever. I actually have what might possibly be the original flats from my then new 1973 P-bass. Those sets were a lot different than these new edition Fenders.
3. (Tie) Rotosound RS77 Jazz Bass flats and D'Addario Chromes. The RS77's used to be available in the single VERY high tension, that are also branded now as the Steve Harris set. Those are stiff, and sound amazing... but on one of my basses with a Gotoh 201 'high mass' bridge- they BENT the tailpiece part!
Thankfully, Rotosound added some lighter gauge sets to this lineup. I have a set on my Ampeg/ Edwards fretless build, as they were available in super-super long length, no other flat wound string was available that would fit. They sound and feel great.
The Fender basses I have with the Chromes on them, sound, feel and play wonderfully.
4. LaBella 'Deep Talkin' Bass' flats- on my Danelectro Longhorn- sound as you'd expect- for those Joey Spampinato channeling moments!
5. *EDIT -DR flats- gold silk. Nice set of strings, prety dead sounding pretty quick, I just didn't like the feel or sound of these.
In addition, I've installed and heard a lot of other flat wound sets- for clients. Optima, Rickenbacker originals, Half rounds, pressure wounds, just about all on the market now, or over the last fifty years.
I've used the following sets over the years- EB 'Group' flats, TI flats, GHS don't remember which- and the incredibly great sounding and long out of production Dan Armstrong green silk heavy flats. I saw a new old stock set recently, but they were way out of my price range.
There is something that needs to be said here- 'PUNCH" is something many players achieve simply because it's their style, and it's really primarily in touch, style, and technique. Upright basses have loads of punch, because of how the note is produced, and the fairly quick attack and decay sequence. That's why flats on an electric bass sound 'punchier' to many, as the attack- timbre and decay are different from rounds.
Adding muting to any electric bass will increase what may be perceived as 'punch.' If you palm mute- it can get very 'punchy' compared to without, or compared to a foam or other type string mute.
I'm also as some of you know, a bass tech, and Luthier. My current favorite flat wound sets are, in this order:
1.Ernie Ball Slinky (Cobalt) flats. The low 'B' is easily the only low 'B' flat wound I've heard that doesn't sound disappointing and not as good as the other strings in the set. GREAT sounding set of strings!
2. Fender 9050 ML- these are the best series of Fender flats ever. I actually have what might possibly be the original flats from my then new 1973 P-bass. Those sets were a lot different than these new edition Fenders.
3. (Tie) Rotosound RS77 Jazz Bass flats and D'Addario Chromes. The RS77's used to be available in the single VERY high tension, that are also branded now as the Steve Harris set. Those are stiff, and sound amazing... but on one of my basses with a Gotoh 201 'high mass' bridge- they BENT the tailpiece part!
Thankfully, Rotosound added some lighter gauge sets to this lineup. I have a set on my Ampeg/ Edwards fretless build, as they were available in super-super long length, no other flat wound string was available that would fit. They sound and feel great.
The Fender basses I have with the Chromes on them, sound, feel and play wonderfully.
4. LaBella 'Deep Talkin' Bass' flats- on my Danelectro Longhorn- sound as you'd expect- for those Joey Spampinato channeling moments!
5. *EDIT -DR flats- gold silk. Nice set of strings, prety dead sounding pretty quick, I just didn't like the feel or sound of these.
In addition, I've installed and heard a lot of other flat wound sets- for clients. Optima, Rickenbacker originals, Half rounds, pressure wounds, just about all on the market now, or over the last fifty years.
I've used the following sets over the years- EB 'Group' flats, TI flats, GHS don't remember which- and the incredibly great sounding and long out of production Dan Armstrong green silk heavy flats. I saw a new old stock set recently, but they were way out of my price range.
There is something that needs to be said here- 'PUNCH" is something many players achieve simply because it's their style, and it's really primarily in touch, style, and technique. Upright basses have loads of punch, because of how the note is produced, and the fairly quick attack and decay sequence. That's why flats on an electric bass sound 'punchier' to many, as the attack- timbre and decay are different from rounds.
Adding muting to any electric bass will increase what may be perceived as 'punch.' If you palm mute- it can get very 'punchy' compared to without, or compared to a foam or other type string mute.
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For punch, ask Mike Tyson what he is using specially for the mid section. 
I love the LaBella White Tape Wound strings I bought at the TB shop 4 or 5-years ago. From 1985 until then I used round-wounds on my '82 Jazz. They have a lot more of the higher harmonics than flats I'd used previously. The round wounds I'd used for so many years were the Dean Markley Blue Steel and also the DR Black Beauties. These tape wound strings have a very nicely balanced sound from string to string whereas the lower 2o r 3 frets of the D and G strings were pretty thin on my round-wounds. I typically had to play the E and A on the 7th fret of the preceding string for a good sound. With the LaBella tape wounds I play those notes wherever it is most convenient - no hand shifting required.
They make them in black, white with copper core, white with gold core, and white. The black is the darkest and the white is the brightest with the other two being in between in sound. The black tapes are opaque, the white are semi opaque enabling you to see the cores.
I should mention that from 1966 until 1972 or so I used Fender Flatwounds. In '72 I switched to Fender Nylon Tape wounds, which were darker sounding. Then in 1976 my 1965 Jazz was stolen and I didn't replace it until 1985 when I found my '82 Jazz. Really like my LaBella Tape Wounds!
Yeah, but it's not temporary. It's been beat to death. It's never coming back!
I admittedly had to look up what that meant. There are a lot of words and terms out there for me that I won't share that fall under this definition.
I don't have experience with the EB Group (non cobalt) flats, but agree with the Roto77 (45-105) and Fender 9050 & EB Cobalt flats comments above.
After ~2005 I used Roto77s on a MM 5 HH Bongo and ("old school") Pyramid Golds on a P/J Squier. With the Covid lockdown boredom and the resulting Band pause, I started experimenting with strings (& basses & pickups) a bit more.
Roto77s (45-130)
as S.F.Sorrow said
> bright [and clanky] out of the box.. unbalanced [for a while]... Once they're broken in they sound amazing though ... lower action and less relief .... important to do a full setup.
Better than I could say it.
I prefer them *after* they are broken in (and do not like their out of the box sound)... had two sets on a bass for about 8+ years each on my back then main gigging/practice bass, so lots of hours. It is a MM 5 with neo HH/HH [yes the fugly WC one] with inherently punchy PUs and a 4 band active circuit, so EQ boosting fading frequencies was possible and let me use them longer than I probably would have on a passive bass. Used them until they stopped intonating and/or lost all punch. Unlike more traditional flats they pack a lot in your face punch and can cut in a dense mix when needed. When I replaced them with a set of EB 2816 Cobalt flats (45-130), I had to loosen the TR wheel ca. 3 full rotations to just get the strings off the frets.... they are high tension. Still like them a lot, but not on thin/Jazz necks.
I have a spare P-Neck, at some point I will swap out the nut with a narrower string spacing. If that works out, I will use them again. I don't mind the P-neck thickness, the string spacing annoys/distracts me, especially when switching back & forth (all of my 34" basses have Jazz or narrower spacing).
Fender 9050L (45-100 with a 105 E, 4 string)
> less mid content?
Compared to EV Group? idk, but they definitely do not lack mids, it is what they have a good reserve of along with low end... broken in the higher frequencies are more subdued, though not like broken in Pyramid Golds . As michael_t said "grit and grind" and I would add growl is their strong point. They can do "thumpy" with EQ & a mute, and pack some punch in a mix when you want it.... I wouldn't call them "thuddy". "Half Moderns" perhaps?
EB Cobalt Flats (45-130)
These strings confuse me... not necessarily in a bad way. Although their construction is, I'm not sure I would say they sound like flats. They have more of the tonal qualities of pressure wounds or nickles (not zingy SS strings to my ears, which some people attribute to them). Since I have switched back to 4 strings, I haven't had a lot of hours on them or the chance (mainly due to lugging stuff ~50km on Public Transport) to try them w/ the band. Soloed on the neck w/ the EQ flat, they still sound more like the Roto66 *Nickle* coated strings I have on a passive Jazz bass than flats. They have punch and do not go thud/thump in the night.
Dunlop SS Flats (45-105) [not mentioned above]
These can pack a lot of punch getting near the ball-park of the Roto77s.... and have a good does of high frequency as well. They are definitely modern and not thumpy/thuddy. To my ears they are a bit mid/low mid scooped though and do not pair well with pickups which also are [e.g. CS62/SD QPs].
Some people here have reported QS issues, mine were fine out of the box (and have been moved around to different basses a couple of times with no issues). I have them on a P/J parts bass with a Yosemite P/Gen4 noiseless J (which is never soloed) and like them there. However, I don't use this bass with the band (hard rock/dense mix).
D'Addario Half Rounds (= Ground Wound) (50-105) [not mentioned above]
I have a set and have tried them on different basses several times. I always end up removing them again (probably before I should) . To me they sound like very dead rounds and I do not like the feel (no matter how much I clean them off with 99% alcohol or use things like fast fret ... they feel "grabby", feels like they are cutting into my callouses). Some people do like them though, I may just never have tolerated them long enough to have that "aha" moment...
I normally listen to the pickup/strings I have on a bass, and if I am not able to moderately EQ in the tone I want, look for strings which excel in what I'm missing and retain what I want. TB threads (with enough posts/opinions ... we all have a different vantage points what is modern/thumpy/punchy etc) with enough posts you can usually pick out how it relates to you. They have always been a big help for me with this.
-Henry
After ~2005 I used Roto77s on a MM 5 HH Bongo and ("old school") Pyramid Golds on a P/J Squier. With the Covid lockdown boredom and the resulting Band pause, I started experimenting with strings (& basses & pickups) a bit more.
Roto77s (45-130)
as S.F.Sorrow said
> bright [and clanky] out of the box.. unbalanced [for a while]... Once they're broken in they sound amazing though ... lower action and less relief .... important to do a full setup.
Better than I could say it.
I prefer them *after* they are broken in (and do not like their out of the box sound)... had two sets on a bass for about 8+ years each on my back then main gigging/practice bass, so lots of hours. It is a MM 5 with neo HH/HH [yes the fugly WC one] with inherently punchy PUs and a 4 band active circuit, so EQ boosting fading frequencies was possible and let me use them longer than I probably would have on a passive bass. Used them until they stopped intonating and/or lost all punch. Unlike more traditional flats they pack a lot in your face punch and can cut in a dense mix when needed. When I replaced them with a set of EB 2816 Cobalt flats (45-130), I had to loosen the TR wheel ca. 3 full rotations to just get the strings off the frets.... they are high tension. Still like them a lot, but not on thin/Jazz necks.
I have a spare P-Neck, at some point I will swap out the nut with a narrower string spacing. If that works out, I will use them again. I don't mind the P-neck thickness, the string spacing annoys/distracts me, especially when switching back & forth (all of my 34" basses have Jazz or narrower spacing).
Fender 9050L (45-100 with a 105 E, 4 string)
> less mid content?
Compared to EV Group? idk, but they definitely do not lack mids, it is what they have a good reserve of along with low end... broken in the higher frequencies are more subdued, though not like broken in Pyramid Golds . As michael_t said "grit and grind" and I would add growl is their strong point. They can do "thumpy" with EQ & a mute, and pack some punch in a mix when you want it.... I wouldn't call them "thuddy". "Half Moderns" perhaps?
EB Cobalt Flats (45-130)
These strings confuse me... not necessarily in a bad way. Although their construction is, I'm not sure I would say they sound like flats. They have more of the tonal qualities of pressure wounds or nickles (not zingy SS strings to my ears, which some people attribute to them). Since I have switched back to 4 strings, I haven't had a lot of hours on them or the chance (mainly due to lugging stuff ~50km on Public Transport) to try them w/ the band. Soloed on the neck w/ the EQ flat, they still sound more like the Roto66 *Nickle* coated strings I have on a passive Jazz bass than flats. They have punch and do not go thud/thump in the night.
Dunlop SS Flats (45-105) [not mentioned above]
These can pack a lot of punch getting near the ball-park of the Roto77s.... and have a good does of high frequency as well. They are definitely modern and not thumpy/thuddy. To my ears they are a bit mid/low mid scooped though and do not pair well with pickups which also are [e.g. CS62/SD QPs].
Some people here have reported QS issues, mine were fine out of the box (and have been moved around to different basses a couple of times with no issues). I have them on a P/J parts bass with a Yosemite P/Gen4 noiseless J (which is never soloed) and like them there. However, I don't use this bass with the band (hard rock/dense mix).
D'Addario Half Rounds (= Ground Wound) (50-105) [not mentioned above]
I have a set and have tried them on different basses several times. I always end up removing them again (probably before I should) . To me they sound like very dead rounds and I do not like the feel (no matter how much I clean them off with 99% alcohol or use things like fast fret ... they feel "grabby", feels like they are cutting into my callouses). Some people do like them though, I may just never have tolerated them long enough to have that "aha" moment...
I normally listen to the pickup/strings I have on a bass, and if I am not able to moderately EQ in the tone I want, look for strings which excel in what I'm missing and retain what I want. TB threads (with enough posts/opinions ... we all have a different vantage points what is modern/thumpy/punchy etc) with enough posts you can usually pick out how it relates to you. They have always been a big help for me with this.
-Henry
Yeah, but it's not temporary. It's been beat to death. It's never coming back!
I admittedly had to look up what that meant. There are a lot of words and terms out there for me that I won't share that fall under this definition.
That's relative too.
