Flats with punch?

[40Hz]

27520764[/URL], member: 156400"]With "punch" I suppose I mean low mids with a "thickness" to their tone, no "puffy" sound.

Interesting. Because “punch” to me is more about the speed and amplitude of the initial attack of a note than about its tonal characteristics. In other words how ‘snappy’ it is. Or how hard it kicks.

dedicated compressor thread[/URL], member: 156400"]I find the Dunnlop flats as well as the Fender 9050s to have lows and low mids but not much "thickness".

Judicious use of compression is one well known way to thicken up your sound provided you use the right compressor. But compression is an entirely separate topic best left to its own thread. And there is a 27520764 you might want to look at if you’re interested in exploring that option or have questions about it.

 

[FunkHead]

I've never heard anything punch through a mix like Chromes. If you want flat-like tone but want to be heard clearly in the middle of the mix, I can't recommend them enough.

Do you have a preferred set/gauge range? Thanks

Funkhead

 

[Geddy Claypool]

Do you have a preferred set/gauge range? Thanks

Funkhead

Sure! I play them on my Lakland Darryl Jones 5 (35 inch scale) and I use the 132-100-80-65-45 gauge set. I think the model name is ECB81-5SL but I'm sure there's a 4 string version of the set as well. They're a little bit on the stiffer side, but personally I like that.

 

[FunkHead]

^^^Thank you^^^^

 

[Phaidrus]

Interesting. Because “punch” to me is more about the speed and amplitude of the initial attack of a note than about its tonal characteristics. In other words how ‘snappy’ it is. Or how hard it kicks.



Judicious use of compression is one well known way to thicken up your sound provided you use the right compressor. But compression is an entirely separate topic best left to its own thread. And there is a dedicated compressor thread you might want to look at if you’re interested in exploring that option or have questions about it.

Yes, "punch" is what hits/kicks you in the chest, or something along those lines. Perhaps it has to do with the attributes you mention: speed, amplitude, attack.

As of compression thickening up the sound and hence adding "punch", I've recently acquired a compressor (Markbass Compressore) and have been experimenting with it in that respect. With good results, I think, although I'm not so much versed in the science behind it.

 

[40Hz]

27523687[/URL], member: 156400"]Yes, "punch" is what hits/kicks you in the chest, or something along those lines. Perhaps it has to do with the attributes you mention: speed, amplitude, attack.

Punch falls under the heading of ‘timbre.”

timbre
tăm′bər, tĭm′-
noun

1. The combination of qualities of a sound that distinguishes it from other sounds of the same pitch and volume.

It’s a term frequently used interchangeably with ‘tone.’ Basically all those little differences that make a difference once you get past the pitch and amplitude. And they can be a challenge to describe at times.

As of compression thickening up the sound and hence adding "punch", I've recently acquired a compressor (Markbass Compressore) and have been experimenting with it in that respect. With good results, I think, although I'm not so much versed in the science behind it.

And yeah, compressors. One of the two “secret” weapons in a bass player’s toolkit. And not so much a science as an art. Which in this context means to let your ears be your guide.

The MB Compressore is an excellent compressor for enhancing tone. There’s a review with good descriptions of each of the control functions and some sample setting to be found here.

I use mine mostly for fretless bass. It adds a subtle sauce to the overall sound and helps tone down some of that fretless cliche “mwah” thing one of my basses falls too easily into. My setting are very close to some of the ones the author of the review uses. You might want to check out the article and use those as starting points. You’ll still neef to tweak settings to match your bass, amp, and playing style. But the author of the review (and TB member by the name of Scubaduba) is someone who really has a handle on how to use compressors. And I’ve always found his articles a worthwhile read.

 

[Phaidrus]

One of the two “secret” weapons in a bass player’s toolkit.

Interesting review of the Compressore, thanks. So, what's the other secret weapon? Got to know!

 

[40Hz]

27524007[/URL], member: 156400"]Interesting review of the Compressore, thanks. So, what's the other secret weapon? Got to know!

A HPF. High Pass Filter. It’s one of those pieces of gear that can make a huge difference in your sound IF you actually need one. Not everyone does.

And much like compressors, there’s differences of opinion in the bass community whether either one could ever be considered necessary at all.

I don’t consider either absolutely essential. They’re just tools. But it’s nice to know they’re available if and when you can benefit by using either or both. I’ve got both plus a boatload of other outboard gear. But over half the time I play I just go straight into the amp. So I consider myself more as an educated gear user rather than a fanboy or tech zealot.

Bottom line: use whatever works for you and try to keep it as simple as possible.

 

[ldproductions]

D'Addario Half Rounds (= Ground Wound) (50-105) [not mentioned above]

I have a set and have tried them on different basses several times. I always end up removing them again (probably before I should) . To me they sound like very dead rounds and I do not like the feel (no matter how much I clean them off with 99% alcohol or use things like fast fret ... they feel "grabby", feels like they are cutting into my callouses). Some people do like them though, I may just never have tolerated them long enough to have that "aha" moment...

I bought some of these to swap onto a used Ibanez SR250 that I picked up and it while it took me a little while to get into them, now I don't want to take them off. They were definitely a little grabby at first, but airing out/regular playing for a week or two got rid of that. The sound lends itself well to hip hop, reggae, experimental stuff where more of an upright bass tone is appropriate and, coincidentally, rockabilly. They're percussive without being too thumpy (or dead depending on who you ask) like a flatwound, and they're not as snappy as tapewounds. They also have good sustain.

What they do poorly though is styles that require a growl or punchy midrange tone, or playing with a pick. If I'm playing punk or anything similar I'm reaching for the P-Bass with round wounds on it.

 

[Steve Fox]

I've never heard anything punch through a mix like Chromes. If you want flat-like tone but want to be heard clearly in the middle of the mix, I can't recommend them enough.

That is 50% of why I love Chromes. That and the feel. Clean them before you put them on and play them for few weeks and they’re heavenly.

 

[HHudson]

@ldproductions

> "What they do poorly though is styles that require a growl or punchy midrange tone"

Probably the reason I have never left them on long enough & what I like about the Fender 9050s, the latter have some growl & low mid range umpf.

> "If I'm playing punk or anything similar I'm reaching for the P-Bass with round wounds on it."

Ditto, I am mainly using rounds & pressure wounds with the band now ... the motown/STAX stuff I have been able to sneak in, we do more in the style of the Soncis or the [English] Beat

Though the Roto RS77[5]LDs flats did serve me very well for many years including for punk, but most of my now lighter basses with J-Style Necks do not enjoy the 214.41 resp for 5 string 255.54 lbs tension... incredibly low action was possible with those.

Flats are mostly for my own playing @ home for now, and once an a while for fun with the band (because I am curious how they sit in the mix).

-Henry

 

[Phaidrus]

@ldproductions

> "What they do poorly though is styles that require a growl or punchy midrange tone"

Probably the reason I have never left them on long enough & what I like about the Fender 9050s, the latter have some growl & low mid range umpf.

> "If I'm playing punk or anything similar I'm reaching for the P-Bass with round wounds on it."

Ditto, I am mainly using rounds & pressure wounds with the band now ... the motown/STAX stuff I have been able to sneak in, we do more in the style of the Soncis or the [English] Beat

Though the Roto RS77[5]LDs flats did serve me very well for many years including for punk, but most of my now lighter basses with J-Style Necks do not enjoy the 214.41 resp for 5 string 255.54 lbs tension... incredibly low action was possible with those.

Flats are mostly for my own playing @ home for now, and once an a while for fun with the band (because I am curious how they sit in the mix).

-Henry

Mirror in the Bathroom is one of my favourites. Those rim shots are dead-on!

 

[HHudson]

@Phaidrus

Love that song as well... but will have to wait a bit before "sneaking" that onto any set list.
I was referring to their version of Tears of a Clown (orig. Smokey Robinson/Funk Brothers).

I have become the oldest (in age) member of the band and the two members in more advanced years than I, who had even heard of some of the songs I suggest, left/moved by the time the covid thang hit.

It has become a bit of a game for me. If there is a song where I enjoy the bass line, I try to find more modern interpretations and pack those onto a usb stick for band practice. I choose versions where especially the lead guitar player can imagine himself playing it. So e.g. not the Richard Berry version of "Have Love Will Travel", but the Sonics or Black Keys versions, or for "Walking the Dog" not Rufus Thomas or Jackie Shane, but the Soncis or Areosmith, Stones versions (oddly our drummer - mostly Metal - likes the slower grooving Aykroyd/Belushi version best).

We got a new guitar player this year, who is a millennial. She plays bass in another band, so ++. She can play off beat well and oddly knows a lot of the stuff I like from the 60-70's. So I am hoping we can get some of the Specials on the set list.... i.e. with that Lynval Golding + Roddy Radiation fusion/vibe, which should work well with the two of them.

Sorry for the off topic rant %-o

-Henry

 

[Phaidrus]

@Phaidrus

Love that song as well... but will have to wait a bit before "sneaking" that onto any set list.
I was referring to their version of Tears of a Clown (orig. Smokey Robinson/Funk Brothers).

I have become the oldest (in age) member of the band and the two members in more advanced years than I, who had even heard of some of the songs I suggest, left/moved by the time the covid thang hit.

It has become a bit of a game for me. If there is a song where I enjoy the bass line, I try to find more modern interpretations and pack those onto a usb stick for band practice. I choose versions where especially the lead guitar player can imagine himself playing it. So e.g. not the Richard Berry version of "Have Love Will Travel", but the Sonics or Black Keys versions, or for "Walking the Dog" not Rufus Thomas or Jackie Shane, but the Soncis or Areosmith, Stones versions (oddly our drummer - mostly Metal - likes the slower grooving Aykroyd/Belushi version best).

We got a new guitar player this year, who is a millennial. She plays bass in another band, so ++. She can play off beat well and oddly knows a lot of the stuff I like from the 60-70's. So I am hoping we can get some of the Specials on the set list.... i.e. with that Lynval Golding + Roddy Radiation fusion/vibe, which should work well with the two of them.

Sorry for the off topic rant %-o

-Henry

Your diplomatic approach seems to be the right one. Regardless of age / generation differences, I find it quite difficult, given my eclectic taste (if I may so put it), to meet people who would be interested in playing the same music as I would. And who are neither much worse nor much better than me in terms of playing skills. Compatibility is an issue!

Edit: I'm an amateur musician and play for fun, so this situation does not affect my career prospects. That's an entirely different problem.

 

[HHudson]

Your diplomatic approach seems to be the right one. Regardless of age / generation differences, I find it quite difficult, given my eclectic taste (if I may so put it), to meet people who would be interested in playing the same music as I would. And who are neither much worse nor much better than me in terms of playing skills. Compatibility is an issue!

Edit: I'm an amateur musician and play for fun, so this situation does not affect my career prospects. That's an entirely different problem.

If you can find people who you enjoy playing music with, I wouldn't worry about skill levels too much. If you are better, you can teach/help them & and if they are better, you can learn from them. As far as styles go, adapt in both directions, it can be fun. Our former singer brought in a TALCO (Italian Ska/Punk) rendition of "Bella Ciao"... I had never heard it, just started playing the opening riff of Braud's epic 1932 bass line for "It Don't Mean a Thing....", despite the severe genre mismatch it stuck & we still play it like that.

I am no "pro", I have played E2 guitar since the mid 70's in & outside of bands, but bass only since ca. 2004. Our current band started as an "office" band and has grown quite a bit since. We gig, but any cash made goes into the band "Kasse" for PA/cables/microphones etc... i.e. its not my "day job". I do it because I enjoy playing music with others. I believe the bass in modern music (for me post 1920's & Tuba) is the backbone of any band, my respect is huge for the bass (what instrument are the booties being wiggled to?). I have sworn not to call myself a bassist & just a guitar player on bass until I can play as well as Blanton... at my age, I may never get that opportunity (especially with the styles of music we play, lol).

-Henry

 

[HHudson]

@Phaidrus

Very *terribly* off topic and heretical E2 examples to boot, but listen to these two recordings.

> "my eclectic taste .... Compatibility is an issue!"

Music is a wonderful thing, you can do anything and perceived boundaries may not be what they appear . Sometimes it even works out well and is listenable .
I don't even expect you to like either of these necessarily - they are far beyond what most people are willing to listen to today, but just as an example.

Django Reinhardt's Appel Direct 1939 (gt):




And this, Robert Fripp's (gt) 1981 brief excursion into New Wave with the "League of Gentlemen" (with a very solid Sara Lee on bass). He was of course very aware of Django [and Charlie Christian] as most guitarists born before the 60's were:




Just food for thought, concerning compatibility doubts. What you are doubting very well could be your strength, go outside the box, improvise & use it.

-Henry

 

[Phaidrus]

@Phaidrus

Very *terribly* off topic and heretical E2 examples to boot, but listen to these two recordings.

> "my eclectic taste .... Compatibility is an issue!"

Music is a wonderful thing, you can do anything and perceived boundaries may not be what they appear . Sometimes it even works out well and is listenable .
I don't even expect you to like either of these necessarily - they are far beyond what most people are willing to listen to today, but just as an example.

Django Reinhardt's Appel Direct 1939 (gt):




And this, Robert Fripp's (gt) 1981 brief excursion into New Wave with the "League of Gentlemen" (with a very solid Sara Lee on bass). He was of course very aware of Django [and Charlie Christian] as most guitarists born before the 60's were:




Just food for thought, concerning compatibility doubts. What you are doubting very well could be your strength, go outside the box, improvise & use it.

-Henry

Yes, Django Reinhardt! He was a major influence for Tony Iommi (and his heavy riffs) after the accident with his (Iommi's) finger. It could be argued that without Reinhard there would have been no heavy metal. Which goes to show the extent of intertextuality (a term borrowed from literary criticism) in music.