Flatwounds for fretless? Trying to emulate double bass

[SteveC]

I went back to TI's after DTF on my fretted P bass. I have played jazz gigs with the P with those flats and it sounded great. Technique has as much or more to do with it I think than gear. Gear of course helps. I have rounds on my fretless. I prefer it to flats as I can get more of that "mwah" with rounds.

Best "upright" sound I ever got was with a Rob Allen Mouse 30. Guys I played with almost liked it better than a real upright. One bass I wish I had back.

 

[tmsbandman]

You won't get an upright sound without an upright bass.

hey, someone had to say it

No doubt. As much as I would LOVE to have a DB, I don't have the need, the cash, or the space. Trying to get as close as I can

 

[Root 5]

I get a nice uprightish sound by rolling down the tone, palm-muting and plucking with my thumb. Add a set of flats, half rounds or tape wounds and we're there.

 

[thmsjordan]

There are two guys who really sound like upright players to me on fretless (btw - I play both upright and electric).

Chris Brubeck is already covered here and yes, he uses tape wounds. The other is Tom Warrington who I believe plays mostly upright these days but back in the 1970's he was really tearing it up playing in Buddy Rich's band using a fretless Precision with flats. Here is a clip:



I play a Warmoth P/J with a Madagascar fretless ebony fingerboard and I use TI flats. The sound is freakin glorious so I wouldn't pay much attention to any statements about flats not working well for fretless. Blanket statements like that always have exceptions. I think it depends on the bass, the player, and the string. IMHO some combinations work and others do not. Tom Warrington sounds phenomenal on steel flats in this video.

There are considerations here in terms of technique and they are worth a look if you want to get a more upright sound.

1. If you play upright you'll notice that the string is plucked somewhat more towards the middle of the string length than it is on electric. If you replicate that location like Brubeck and Warrington do in these videos, it will give you more of an upright sound. Notice both of these guys are playing right over the fingerboard much of the time. This is the opposite of what Jaco did and it sounds very different than playing near the bridge.

2. The fretless has a more aggressive and immediate attack than the upright and you need to work with your own sound to get that to even out and sound more like an upright. I have a theory here: Upright players use a variety of different pizzicato techniques but the jazz guys are the ones who matter in this discussion. Because of the way they play and the angles etc. Most of us end up kinda playing on the sides of the fingers rather than the fingertips. Here is an excellent clip of the Master himself Ray Brown playing and within the 1st 2 minutes you can see a close up of his right hand and how he uses the side of his fingers.



This is typical among Jazz upright players and while Warrington and Brubeck don't seem to need it, I find that it smooths the tone and takes out a little of the bite. It sounds a little more upright-ish to me and so I use it when trying to sound like an upright on fretless.

3. Jazz takes practice. If you aren't familiar with the music or the feel then you need to do some listening. It is very worthwhile and helps your whole experience as a musician. Play with experienced jazz players and ask them for help. The "pocket" is critical in any music and it is in Jazz as well. It takes work to get there.

Hope this helps and feel free to add to it or to disagree.

 

[thmsjordan]

You won't get an upright sound without an upright bass.

hey, someone had to say it

I have said that many times in my past posts, but then I heard Tom Warrington and Chris Brubeck.

Now you can't get all the way there on electric but you can come a lot closer than I had previously thought possible before hearing these guys. I am 61 and played mostly upright Jazz, classical, and show work my whole life. My back is in bad shape and I have recently been looking for ways to get an electric or an EUB to sound more like an upright so I could save my back the trouble of hauling an upright all over God's creation. I have gotten my sound to the point where most folks are happy with it on a fretless electric.

Again - I still agree with your point but it is a lot less of a difference if you study the issue and look at the players who have managed it.

 

[tmsbandman]

Thanks, all. Just to clarify (as the thread has taken on a different direction)-I've been playing bass since 1977. I get it about where to pluck, what part of the finger, muting, etc. (although there is some stellar advice for someone who might be just trying to figure this out)

The T-I strings currently on it have a great tone, but I can't get the buzz where I want it. They are SO loose. Looking at the "original" LaBella DTB or the LaBella Tapewounds. Question: I LIKE that contact sound from my plucking hand (I think it adds authenticity to the upright-ish tone).
1-which of those two will keep that little click? and
2-are the originals just INSANELY stiff? FWIW-My fretted basses have Roto 66s on them and I don't find them overly stiff

 

[tmsbandman]

I have gotten my sound to the point where most folks are happy with it on a fretless electric.

So....what strings are you playing, and on what bass?

 

[thmsjordan]

I use TI flats on a Warmoth P bass that has a Jazz pickup in the bridge position. The other stuff I do is in my other post in this thread so I will refer you to that.

 

[tmsbandman]

I use TI flats on a Warmoth P bass that has a Jazz pickup in the bridge position. The other stuff I do is in my other post in this thread so I will refer you to that.

Oh. Got it. I hadn't realized that was you earlier. My mistake

 

[coyote1]

I have said that many times in my past posts, but then I heard Tom Warrington and Chris Brubeck.

Now you can't get all the way there on electric but you can come a lot closer than I had previously thought possible before hearing these guys. I am 61 and played mostly upright Jazz, classical, and show work my whole life. My back is in bad shape and I have recently been looking for ways to get an electric or an EUB to sound more like an upright so I could save my back the trouble of hauling an upright all over God's creation. I have gotten my sound to the point where most folks are happy with it on a fretless electric.

Again - I still agree with your point but it is a lot less of a difference if you study the issue and look at the players who have managed it.

I wasn't making a point... I was making a joke.

I am all for attempts to extract upright-like tone from instruments that are not quite so cumbersome! My own recent experiences with the Takamine TB10 tell me that indeed, you can get a long way toward that sound. What I've found is that it's the strings as much as anything else. The builders of the Marcustico and Christopher hollowbody bass guitars both AFAIK equip their instruments with Spirocores or Helicores. And both those instruments are claimed by many on these very forums to do a good job, within the limitations of a small body, of emulating the characteristics of an upright. The Safran Iris, a large hollowbody that also does a good upright-like thing, likewise utilizes Spirocores. So I put D'addario Prelude (and one Helicore) strings on my TB10.... and it gets so much closer than with any bass guitar string.

I'm wondering if anyone has put orchestral strings on a solidbody. Actually I'm not wondering. Indeed they have - this is the concept employed by so many of the electric upright makers. I think most of those come with pizz or hybrid strings. I'm wondering if any owners of solidbody EUBs have tried arco strings for pizzicato use, and what results they have obtained.

If I can find a way without damaging the instrument, maybe I'll try to put the Prelude A string on my Ibanez Portamento and see how that sounds.

 

[thmsjordan]

I wasn't making a point... I was making a joke.

I am all for attempts to extract upright-like tone from instruments that are not quite so cumbersome! My own recent experiences with the Takamine TB10 tell me that indeed, you can get a long way toward that sound. What I've found is that it's the strings as much as anything else. The builders of the Marcustico and Christopher hollowbody bass guitars both AFAIK equip their instruments with Spirocores or Helicores. And both those instruments are claimed by many on these very forums to do a good job, within the limitations of a small body, of emulating the characteristics of an upright. The Safran Iris, a large hollowbody that also does a good upright-like thing, likewise utilizes Spirocores. So I put D'addario Prelude (and one Helicore) strings on my TB10.... and it gets so much closer than with any bass guitar string.

I'm wondering if anyone has put orchestral strings on a solidbody. Actually I'm not wondering. Indeed they have - this is the concept employed by so many of the electric upright makers. I think most of those come with pizz or hybrid strings. I'm wondering if any owners of solidbody EUBs have tried arco strings for pizzicato use, and what results they have obtained.

If I can find a way without damaging the instrument, maybe I'll try to put the Prelude A string on my Ibanez Portamento and see how that sounds.

Yes, It's all good. I wasn't trying to be troublesome. My opinions were the result of some recent epiphany. Please forgive me if I overstated my point.

 

[tmsbandman]

Yes, It's all good. I wasn't trying to be troublesome. My opinions were the result of some recent epiphany. Please forgive me if I overstated my point.

Not at all. I was just clarifying where I am. It's great info. Certainly no offense intended (or taken)

 

[SteveC]

You won't get an upright sound without an upright bass.

hey, someone had to say it

True. But I had people tell me my Rob Allen Mouse 30 fretless sounded more like an amplified upright than an amplified upright. And it's a heck of a lot easier to carry and amplify.

 

[BarfanyShart]

For flats to emulate an upright bass, I'd grab a set of Labella Deep Talking Flats. To me (I've played upright since 6th grade), they're the closest that still FEEL like a set of upright bass strings, and they have that powerful upfront attack and quick decay that is really what people want. Combine that with the Nordy Mute, and you should be as close as you can get.

As a former "DB guy" I agree that DTF's are the BG string that is closest to an upright string, and that's why I like them best. I'm not a big fan of mutes or tapes, and I don't agree with the premise that a lack of sustain characterizes the DB sound - my DBs always had as much or more sustain than any BG. That said, a lot of guys get a great jazz sound out of tapes on a fretless acoustic or hollowbody BG, but I think the real secret sauce is a piezo pickup to make the articulation sound like an amplified DB.

My fretted short scale BG has a blendable piezo circuit and DTF's, and I think it can mimic a DB tone as well as anything else that is not a DB or EUB. It's also kind of mostly in your fingers, so you need to figure out how to adjust your technique in order to get the sound you are looking for.

 

[SteveC]

It's also kind of mostly in your fingers, so you need to figure out how to adjust your technique in order to get the sound you are looking for.

This is a big part of it.

 

[BarfanyShart]

This is a big part of it.

The perennial unhelpful TB response, but it's true.

 

[el murdoque]

Looked through the forum and did not find the info I'm seeking.

My Carvin IC-4 fretless (older style with soapbars) currently has T-I Jazz Flats on it. I like the tone, but the extremely low tension is a problem. I've tried an extremely high setup to lessen the buzz, but it's still too much. And....there is TOO much sustain. If I use a foam mute, the buzz and sustain are lessened, but the tone is totally dead (Yes, I've tried different foams, width, and placement).

I'm looking for a string with more low end thump. I really have to crank the low and cut low mids on the T-Is to get the tone I want. What strings do you like for double bass emulation? It'll never be the real thing, but I'd like to get as close as possible.

BTW-The MarkBass VPF filter is a nice EQ curve to help.

Thanks, all. Just to clarify (as the thread has taken on a different direction)-I've been playing bass since 1977. I get it about where to pluck, what part of the finger, muting, etc. (although there is some stellar advice for someone who might be just trying to figure this out)

The T-I strings currently on it have a great tone, but I can't get the buzz where I want it. They are SO loose. Looking at the "original" LaBella DTB or the LaBella Tapewounds. Question: I LIKE that contact sound from my plucking hand (I think it adds authenticity to the upright-ish tone).
1-which of those two will keep that little click? and
2-are the originals just INSANELY stiff? FWIW-My fretted basses have Roto 66s on them and I don't find them overly stiff

I have LaBella DTF's on one bass and TI flats on another.
On the bass with the TI flats I raised the action a bit so I can play them without hitting the fretboard. The looseness of the strings makes fretting so easy that I don't mind the higher action at all.
In my humble opinion, these are the opposite of what you want. They sing, rich on overtones and with sustain.
The LaBellas on the other hand, are nice and stiff to the plucking hand. They are insanely stiff when you anchor your thumb to the bridge pickup and play as close to the bridge as you can get.
However, you were talking about upright'ish sound. For that, as you know, your hand moves further up, where the strings get softer. An upright, having more scale length, has more tension. The LaBellas do a fair job of giving you a bit of that feeling. I prefer to play between the last fret and the neck pickup, and I have not found flatwound strings with more definition in that area.

 

[coyote1]

As a former "DB guy" I agree that DTF's are the BG string that is closest to an upright string, and that's why I like them best. I'm not a big fan of mutes or tapes, and I don't agree with the premise that a lack of sustain characterizes the DB sound - my DBs always had as much or more sustain than any BG. That said, a lot of guys get a great jazz sound out of tapes on a fretless acoustic or hollowbody BG, but I think the real secret sauce is a piezo pickup to make the articulation sound like an amplified DB.

My fretted short scale BG has a blendable piezo circuit and DTF's, and I think it can mimic a DB tone as well as anything else that is not a DB or EUB. It's also kind of mostly in your fingers, so you need to figure out how to adjust your technique in order to get the sound you are looking for.

We can bring some science to this discussion. The biggest component that sets pizzicato DB aside from BG sound wise is the amplitude of the initial attack compared to the sustain:

Invalid Link Removed

An electric solidbody bass waveform will never look like that.

EDIT: the Warrington clip is amazing. He doesn't even have a mute on the strings, and if you look you see he's not thumb muting or anything. And while his playing does not sound exactly 'upright', it's about as close as could possibly be expected.

 

[tmsbandman]

We can bring some science to this discussion. The biggest component that sets pizzicato DB aside from BG sound wise is the amplitude of the initial attack compared to the sustain:

Invalid Link Removed

View attachment 4154890

An electric solidbody bass waveform will never look like that.

EDIT: the Warrington clip is amazing. He doesn't even have a mute on the strings, and if you look you see he's not thumb muting or anything. And while his playing does not sound exactly 'upright', it's about as close as could possibly be expected.

That big attack and quick decay is what the foam mutes INTEND to do, but it kills so much tone (and too much of the sustain) that IMO it misses. I think the BG wave form would either be much more level (no mute) or much shorter in length (foam mute).

 

[BarfanyShart]

There are two guys who really sound like upright players to me on fretless (btw - I play both upright and electric).

Chris Brubeck is already covered here and yes, he uses tape wounds. The other is Tom Warrington who I believe plays mostly upright these days but back in the 1970's he was really tearing it up playing in Buddy Rich's band using a fretless Precision with flats. Here is a clip:



I play a Warmoth P/J with a Madagascar fretless ebony fingerboard and I use TI flats. The sound is freakin glorious so I wouldn't pay much attention to any statements about flats not working well for fretless. Blanket statements like that always have exceptions. I think it depends on the bass, the player, and the string. IMHO some combinations work and others do not. Tom Warrington sounds phenomenal on steel flats in this video.

There are considerations here in terms of technique and they are worth a look if you want to get a more upright sound.

1. If you play upright you'll notice that the string is plucked somewhat more towards the middle of the string length than it is on electric. If you replicate that location like Brubeck and Warrington do in these videos, it will give you more of an upright sound. Notice both of these guys are playing right over the fingerboard much of the time. This is the opposite of what Jaco did and it sounds very different than playing near the bridge.

2. The fretless has a more aggressive and immediate attack than the upright and you need to work with your own sound to get that to even out and sound more like an upright. I have a theory here: Upright players use a variety of different pizzicato techniques but the jazz guys are the ones who matter in this discussion. Because of the way they play and the angles etc. Most of us end up kinda playing on the sides of the fingers rather than the fingertips. Here is an excellent clip of the Master himself Ray Brown playing and within the 1st 2 minutes you can see a close up of his right hand and how he uses the side of his fingers.



This is typical among Jazz upright players and while Warrington and Brubeck don't seem to need it, I find that it smooths the tone and takes out a little of the bite. It sounds a little more upright-ish to me and so I use it when trying to sound like an upright on fretless.

3. Jazz takes practice. If you aren't familiar with the music or the feel then you need to do some listening. It is very worthwhile and helps your whole experience as a musician. Play with experienced jazz players and ask them for help. The "pocket" is critical in any music and it is in Jazz as well. It takes work to get there.

Hope this helps and feel free to add to it or to disagree.

Regarding the different pizz technique, the main thing I think about when trying to emulate a DB is getting a little more finger meat on the string as I pluck. Like move away from the hard part of my right hand calluses and make contact with the string at the softer middle part of my plucking finger. Not in so much that it softens the attack (if anything you want the attack to sound percussive), but enough so that it creates that big "bloom" to the front of the note.