Fleetwood Mac - Ugh.

[snworks]

I've listened several times carefully and I can't hear what you're talking about. The root note sounds like an F to me. And it sounds the same throughout the tune.

He flubs at the downbeat and a moment later hits the good note.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

As you said, "to some folks it sounds weak." That's an opinion and you are entitled to it. I don't hear it as weak at all. I listen to the same passage and think grace note, specifically an acciaccatura:

"Acciaccatura
Acciaccatura (Invalid Link Removed: /əˌtʃækəˈtjʊərə/, US: /-tʃɑːkə-/; Italian: [attʃakkaˈtuːra]) comes from the Italian verb acciaccare, "to crush". In the eighteenth century, it was an ornament applied to any of the main notes of arpeggiated chords, either a tone or semitone below the chord tone, struck simultaneously with it and then immediately released. Hence the German translation Zusammenschlag (together-stroke).[4]

In the nineteenth century, the acciaccatura (sometimes called short appoggiatura) came to be a shorter variant of the long appoggiatura, where the delay of the principal note is quick. It is written using a grace note (often a quaver, or eighth note), with an oblique stroke through the stem. The acciaccatura in the Classical period is usually performed before the beat and the emphasis is on the main note not the grace note. The appoggiatura long or short has the emphasis on the grace note.[citation needed]

View attachment 3133086 View attachment 3133087 Play (help·info)

The exact interpretation of this will vary according to the tempo of the piece, but the following is possible: View attachment 3133088 View attachment 3133089 Play (help·info)

Whether the note should be played before or on the beat is largely a question of taste and performance practice. Exceptionally, the acciaccatura may be notated in the bar preceding the note to which it is attached, showing that it is to be played before the beat.[citation needed] (This guide to practice is unfortunately not available, of course, if the principal note does not fall at the beginning of the bar.)

The implication also varies with the composer and the period. For example, Invalid Link Removed's and Invalid Link Removed's long appoggiaturas are – to the eye – indistinguishable from Invalid Link Removed's and Prokofiev's before-the-beat acciaccaturas.[citation needed]"

Yep, I know perfectly well what an accacciatura is, but this is a good deal too slow to be an accacciatura as they are usually played, and it doesn't sound like one anyway.

I don't know it's what John McVie intended, you don't know he fumbled. It's all "Monday morning quarterbacking". What I do know is that Fleetwood Mac, and John McVie, had been seriously successful artists for such a long time that the idea of cutting corners on the white Fleetwood Mac album is ridiculous. If it had been deemed "wrong" by John, the other members, or Keith Olsen (producer), it would have been corrected.
Greg

It's not ridiculous at all, and it's not even necessarily even "cutting corners." It's quite possible they didn't hear it at the time, or didn't think it mattered. If they thought the latter, they were probably right; how many times have you heard this particular little thing brought up? Probably not many.

It would be a mistake to assume that just because an album was made by a famous group--and BTW they weren't megastars when they were recording that album; it was AFTER that album that they started getting huge--it can't have any mistakes or bum notes on it. Plenty of good records by good artists have flubs here and there. I don't see what the big deal is with just saying, yeah, it's a bum note. I mean, so what? It's still a good track on a good record, and that's far more important.

As for knowing ... well, in the larger sense, nobody knows anything about anybody's experience but his or her own, and possibly not even that very reliably. But there's nothing wrong with making the best judgment call you can. That's how we all get by, for the most part. Yeah, my ears and experience tell me it's most likely a bum note. That, besides sounding right, seems a more logical and economical explanation than thinking that McVie inexplicably had this subtle hip thought at exactly that point in the song and then never did it again. In the absence of absolute certainty, relative plausibility is sometimes what we're left holding.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Right, and then so you'd do the whole phrase over. I don't remember this ever once posing an unsolvable problem for me though.

Exactly. I don't remember a time either when I couldn't get the punch if the engineer found the right in and out points. And if the decision is made that the punch is worth trying at all!

 

[Spooky88]

Sounds like he is hitting the octave to me..

 

[Nevada Pete]

Yep, I know perfectly well what an accacciatura is, but this is a good deal too slow to be an accacciatura as they are usually played, and it doesn't sound like one anyway.



It's not ridiculous at all, and it's not even necessarily even "cutting corners." It's quite possible they didn't hear it at the time, or didn't think it mattered. If they thought the latter, they were probably right; how many times have you heard this particular little thing brought up? Probably not many.

It would be a mistake to assume that just because an album was made by a famous group--and BTW they weren't megastars when they were recording that album; it was AFTER that album that they started getting huge--it can't have any mistakes or bum notes on it. Plenty of good records by good artists have flubs here and there. I don't see what the big deal is with just saying, yeah, it's a bum note. I mean, so what? It's still a good track on a good record, and that's far more important.

As for knowing ... well, in the larger sense, nobody knows anything about anybody's experience but his or her own, and possibly not even that very reliably. But there's nothing wrong with making the best judgment call you can. That's how we all get by, for the most part. Yeah, my ears and experience tell me it's most likely a bum note. That, besides sounding right, seems a more logical and economical explanation than thinking that McVie inexplicably had this subtle hip thought at exactly that point in the song and then never did it again. In the absence of absolute certainty, relative plausibility is sometimes what we're left holding.

That last paragraph is some strong thinking.

 

[JMacBass65]

First - I have heard this song countless times in my life, being 53 and raised on AOR. I have NEVER noticed what was pointed out by the OP. Of course listening for it, it was plain as day.

And there is no doubt in my mind it's a clam, flub, whatever. It was not a musical choice. Zero question in my mind, and I am surprised they didn't fix it.

So, having said that, I can see why they left it in. They likely didn't notice initially, and by the time they did, maybe John was too drunk, or had left for the day, whatever. Although I'd think he'd have known it as soon as he did it and asked to punch it right then.

Whatever.

 

[StatesideRambler]

...how many times have you heard this particular little thing brought up?

Just once, in a 200-plus-post TB thread.

 

[7615]

This doesn't really have anything to do with rules. That's a bit of a red herring. The real issue, I tend to think, is just that to some folks (including me), that bass note at 0:12 sounds weak. Not because it breaks some rule, but just because it doesn't sound that good.

To me that note at 0:12 seems pretty obviously a clam, not a grace note or a passing tone. The nicest way of putting it is that it's a less-than-convincing musical choice. I don't quite get the scramble to figure out some way of justifying it. It's just not that good a note in that moment. That's not the end of the world.

But also I don't much care. It's such a relatively small thing that it doesn't drag down the track at all, and the bass is strong throughout all the rest of the song. No point in making a mountain out of a molehill ... but also no point in acting as if the molehill isn't there.

You said it

It doesn’t drag down the track at all

Is it a clam ? Maybe they heard it and liked it. Witness the divergence of opinion here. All a matter of subjective taste and no way FM missed hearing it IMO.

 

[Muddslide]

One note; eleven pages.

McVie for the win.

 

[gln1955]

One note; eleven pages.

McVie for the win.

Time to move on to the next note. We might get through this song in my lifetime.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

For f's sake, make it stop.

It was a bum note, clam.

So what?

 

[7615]

Just as many don't want to be.

Actually it’s a G - that is agreed upon

 

[Peteyboy]

We're all bass players who are probably our own worst critics. It can be unsettling to find a plain-daylight f-up, no matter how small, from a world-class player. I agree with the OP and I don't think that pointing it out is wrong. It's maybe turned into a bit of a dead horse. But the only thing worse than the kickers of dead horses are the people that need to stare at that activity and object to it. Look at something else. Start your own fascinating thread maybe. It's not anything at all to chime in with "so what?" or, "he makes more $ than you'll ever do". Those are the very things that help this go on forever. Then the same dudes object to how long it's gone on!

 

[OneOfThose]

When all you see is that one chickens**t little mistake and his musicality, incredible tone, and discernment doesn’t matter, your hopeless, myopic and lost in trivia. Willie Dixon used to always go for the take with the mistakes. He couldn’t give a **** about the perfect take. Feel matters. Finally, a little story. Warren Zevon couldn’t get Werewolves of London to happen, with, you know blameless mistake free LA studio assassins. A late night call to McVie and Fleetwood - who warned the frantic voice enlisting them that they were not one take wonders, they trucked to the studio and in the morning the rhythm track we now know and love was laid down. The magic imperfect feel is profound and it’s in the imperfections where the magic is most likely to happen. But this is not addressed to the original and clueless poster, but instead to the others who now know how to dispatch him. Music is not a clinical enterprise you douse with buckets of Lysol. There’s no enjoyment in that.

 

[Peteyboy]

When all you see is that one chickens**t little mistake and his musicality, incredible tone, and discernment doesn’t matter, your hopeless, myopic and lost in trivia. Willie Dixon used to always go for the take with the mistakes. He couldn’t give a f**k about the perfect take. Feel matters. Finally, a little story. Warren Zevon couldn’t get Werewolves of London to happen, with, you know blameless mistake free LA studio assassins. A late night call to McVie and Fleetwood - who warned the frantic voice enlisting them that they were not one take wonders, they trucked to the studio and in the morning the rhythm track we now know and love was laid down. The magic imperfect feel is profound and it’s in the imperfections where the magic is most likely to happen. But this is not addressed to the original and clueless poster, but instead to the others who now know how to dispatch him. Music is not a clinical enterprise you douse with buckets of Lysol. There’s no enjoyment in that.

Your sanctimonious tone is a bummer. Final edits are down to the producer, not the bass player. Unless you're Roger Waters or Paul McCartney. Lee Sklar played most of the other tracks on the Excitable Boy sessions. No one was frantically enlisting anyone because Warren Zevon and Jackson Brown had access to the best of the best.

Cool story tho.

 

[OneOfThose]

Back off man. I was a history major.

I doubt anyone can escavate from your rambling and scattered reply what you’re trying to do besides tone policing. But you’re ignorance is remarkable - as is your laziness. Dig. When you’ve tried 5 sets of the best LA players, trust me, you get frantic (damn shame about Sklar not being able to cut it on this one). That’s a lotta money wasted - probably more than the the blow budget for the record (chop chop sniff sniff). But since I’m genourous and would like to share what I found after a whole 10 seconds of searching, the following will amaze you. But first, one word: Google.

...cutting the basics for "Werewolves of London" was unusually problematic. "We were doing a lot of the record with Russ Kunkel and Bob Glaub, but when we got to 'Werewolves,' we tried it with them, and it just didn't sound right," Wachtel says. "We got a decent track, but there was something lacking in it. It didn't sound stupid enough; it sounded cute. Jackson was saying, 'It's really good!' and Warren and I were saying, 'No, man, it's too cute. It's got to be...heavy. So we proceeded to try five or six bands after that-Russ and Lee Sklar, Jeff Porcaro and Bob Glaub, Jeff Porcaro and Lee Sklar, Michael Botts on drums, Gary Mallaber on drums, both with different bass players-and it just wasn't working. It was getting depressing. Then, and I can't remember whose idea it was, someone mentioned Mick Fleetwood and John McVie [of Fleetwood Mac], and I flashed, 'That's it! That's who can play this f-ing song!'" Adds Ladanyi, "The energy that 'Werewolves of London' demanded was this kind of animal feeling in the rhythm and the whole attitude of the song. And when you think about Mick Fleetwood and the way he plays...well, there was the werewolf right there. It was perfect!"

 

[OneOfThose]

Wachtel continues: "So I called them, because I'd been working with Stevie [Nicks] and Lindsey [Buckingham]. They came down, we set 'em up, and we did a take, and then we did a second take. After the second take, I looked at Jackson and said, 'That was pretty good, wasn't it?' 'Yeah, that was pretty good, but Mick doesn't quite have it yet.' Mick says, 'Yeah, we don't have it yet; let's keep going.' Well, we kept going until 6 in the morning! I remember at about 5 in the morning saying to Mick, 'I think we're done!' and Mick looks at me with that crazy look he gets in his eyes and sort of whispers, 'We're never done, Waddy!' I thought, 'poopie, we've got a wild one here!' So we put in another hour, and at about 6 in the morning, we were up to about take 59, and I looked at Jackson and said, 'Hey Jackson, take two was pretty good, wasn't it?' He said, 'Yeah, let's hear take two.' We listened to take two, and I said, 'Gentlemen, thank you very much!'"

 

[JMacBass65]

When all you see is that one chickens**t little mistake and his musicality, incredible tone, and discernment doesn’t matter, your hopeless, myopic and lost in trivia. Willie Dixon used to always go for the take with the mistakes. He couldn’t give a f**k about the perfect take. Feel matters. Finally, a little story. Warren Zevon couldn’t get Werewolves of London to happen, with, you know blameless mistake free LA studio assassins. A late night call to McVie and Fleetwood - who warned the frantic voice enlisting them that they were not one take wonders, they trucked to the studio and in the morning the rhythm track we now know and love was laid down. The magic imperfect feel is profound and it’s in the imperfections where the magic is most likely to happen. But this is not addressed to the original and clueless poster, but instead to the others who now know how to dispatch him. Music is not a clinical enterprise you douse with buckets of Lysol. There’s no enjoyment in that.

That's a great story, and I prefer a more organic approach to music, rather than the sliced and diced/cut and paste world of perfection myself. That said - why so harsh?? There seemed to be a lot of misdirected venom in your post, in addition a great story and a valid opinion.

Your sanctimonious tone is a bummer.

Agreed.

Wachtel continues: "So I called them, because I'd been working with Stevie [Nicks] and Lindsey [Buckingham]. They came down, we set 'em up, and we did a take, and then we did a second take. After the second take, I looked at Jackson and said, 'That was pretty good, wasn't it?' 'Yeah, that was pretty good, but Mick doesn't quite have it yet.' Mick says, 'Yeah, we don't have it yet; let's keep going.' Well, we kept going until 6 in the morning! I remember at about 5 in the morning saying to Mick, 'I think we're done!' and Mick looks at me with that crazy look he gets in his eyes and sort of whispers, 'We're never done, Waddy!' I thought, 'poopie, we've got a wild one here!' So we put in another hour, and at about 6 in the morning, we were up to about take 59, and I looked at Jackson and said, 'Hey Jackson, take two was pretty good, wasn't it?' He said, 'Yeah, let's hear take two.' We listened to take two, and I said, 'Gentlemen, thank you very much!'"

I love it - 50+ takes and they go back to #2. No surprise really.

 

[Peteyboy]

Wachtel continues: "So I called them, because I'd been working with Stevie [Nicks] and Lindsey [Buckingham]. They came down, we set 'em up, and we did a take, and then we did a second take. After the second take, I looked at Jackson and said, 'That was pretty good, wasn't it?' 'Yeah, that was pretty good, but Mick doesn't quite have it yet.' Mick says, 'Yeah, we don't have it yet; let's keep going.' Well, we kept going until 6 in the morning! I remember at about 5 in the morning saying to Mick, 'I think we're done!' and Mick looks at me with that crazy look he gets in his eyes and sort of whispers, 'We're never done, Waddy!' I thought, 'poopie, we've got a wild one here!' So we put in another hour, and at about 6 in the morning, we were up to about take 59, and I looked at Jackson and said, 'Hey Jackson, take two was pretty good, wasn't it?' He said, 'Yeah, let's hear take two.' We listened to take two, and I said, 'Gentlemen, thank you very much!'"

Hey History Major, lotsa info on the drummer. Thanks. Got any stories about the guy who played the bass, cause that's the topic of this thread. I'm on the edge of my seat.

 

[Peteyboy]

That History Major joined TB one week ago and somehow in that brief period of time developed the magic ability to walk into a room and suck all the oxygen completely out.

They don't hand out BA's in that. It's a straight-up gift.