TimothyGroovy
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- Aug 3, 2000
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- Owner: Uni•Sound Endorsing Artist: Sadowsky Guitars, Olinto Bass, LaBella Strings
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Fodera Club Part III
- Thread starter Bryan R. Tyler
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Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
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- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
Actually Fodera had not raised its prices for the preceding 2 years. We also spent a great deal of time over the last four months of 2009 looking at how each bass was priced compared to the labor hours spent making it. The bolt-on models only went up in price by 3-4% (given that they had not changed in 3 years, this was not exorbitant). It is the Elite models that saw the highest price increases (in the 10-14% range). Historically their prices relative to the Bolt-ons made no sense given the additional labor involved in building and carving them. Again, viewed over 3 years, not terrible, but, yes a fairly large chunk all at once. Again, these prices are all List Prices. As always, Street Prices are somewhat less.
Finally, in terms of future price increases, right now the only major variable is raw materials (wood!!). As long as these prices stay relatively stable, our plan was to do a price "normalization" for 2010 (which has been done) and then not need to look at prices again for awhile. At least in one instance -- Brazilian Rosewood -- we actually did just LOWER our prices as we were able to negotiate for a large parcel of fingerboard material that was not only CITES certified, but also outstanding sonically and priced fairly.
Another medium term goal of ours is to continue to eat into our order backlog and get it down into the 12-18 month range for Custom Instruments (which right now EVERY Fodera is). At that point we will try to produce a number of "stock" type instruments with the most commonly ordered specs. Fodera attempted to do this in the past, but honestly had neither the management structure/skills nor the right number of fully trained artisans to do it in a well thought out, consistent and fair manner. It is quite likely that these "stock" instruments will be lower in price than the price of the "one-offs" that every bass currently is. There is a HUGE time and labor savings involved in having complete control over the specs of an instrument as opposed to making them exactly to the desires of each customer (which we will never stop doing). Please remember that we have had customers that literally ask to see 15-20 tops before they make their final selection. Think of the time involved in looking for them, cutting some of them, photographing each one of them, emailing them, discussing them, etc. In no way do I want to appear like I'm complaining because we LOVE providing this level of detail and its something that our customers seem to like as well, but when you sometimes have 5-10 labor hours into a bass before it even hits the shop floor, you've got to account for that...
Finally, in terms of future price increases, right now the only major variable is raw materials (wood!!). As long as these prices stay relatively stable, our plan was to do a price "normalization" for 2010 (which has been done) and then not need to look at prices again for awhile. At least in one instance -- Brazilian Rosewood -- we actually did just LOWER our prices as we were able to negotiate for a large parcel of fingerboard material that was not only CITES certified, but also outstanding sonically and priced fairly.
Another medium term goal of ours is to continue to eat into our order backlog and get it down into the 12-18 month range for Custom Instruments (which right now EVERY Fodera is). At that point we will try to produce a number of "stock" type instruments with the most commonly ordered specs. Fodera attempted to do this in the past, but honestly had neither the management structure/skills nor the right number of fully trained artisans to do it in a well thought out, consistent and fair manner. It is quite likely that these "stock" instruments will be lower in price than the price of the "one-offs" that every bass currently is. There is a HUGE time and labor savings involved in having complete control over the specs of an instrument as opposed to making them exactly to the desires of each customer (which we will never stop doing). Please remember that we have had customers that literally ask to see 15-20 tops before they make their final selection. Think of the time involved in looking for them, cutting some of them, photographing each one of them, emailing them, discussing them, etc. In no way do I want to appear like I'm complaining because we LOVE providing this level of detail and its something that our customers seem to like as well, but when you sometimes have 5-10 labor hours into a bass before it even hits the shop floor, you've got to account for that...
Great explanation. Thanks Jason! You and your team seem to be a great asset to Fodera. I love the idea of them making common spec basses. Tre' cool!!!
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
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- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
Thanks for the kind words. We love what we do, love building fine instruments and every time we work with a player to build a Fodera its like reliving our own love of bass and the build process all over again!
I'll give you a big +1 also. Very nice post, and a good, well thought out plan, and the pricing logic makes sense to me.
I agree. I want to know stock" instruments.
I heard that Fodera Bass is carved by ONLY Vinny and Vadym.
(Of course there are more peoples but I heard that they do another things - Set-Up, Making Wooden Covers or another things, Manegement and so on..)
And it seems that you apply more people to make new types of instock instruments.
Please let me know whether I correctly understand or not
Fodera will have 3kinds of models.
1)Custom Bass. - Made by Vinny and Vadym.
2)New types of stock. - Made by more people compare with #1 but Vinny and Vadym will still supervise and made in NYC shop.
3)NYC lines. - Same material -#1,2 but made in Japan.
Of course, Final steps will be done in NYC shop.
Right?
If it is right, I have a question.
#1 has been quite distinct from #3. - Serial Number, Head Logos, and etc.
Will you apply same way to #2? Different serial No or Head Designs or Body shape or anythings?
I heard that Fodera Bass is carved by ONLY Vinny and Vadym.
(Of course there are more peoples but I heard that they do another things - Set-Up, Making Wooden Covers or another things, Manegement and so on..)
And it seems that you apply more people to make new types of instock instruments.
Please let me know whether I correctly understand or not
Fodera will have 3kinds of models.
1)Custom Bass. - Made by Vinny and Vadym.
2)New types of stock. - Made by more people compare with #1 but Vinny and Vadym will still supervise and made in NYC shop.
3)NYC lines. - Same material -#1,2 but made in Japan.
Of course, Final steps will be done in NYC shop.
Right?
If it is right, I have a question.
#1 has been quite distinct from #3. - Serial Number, Head Logos, and etc.
Will you apply same way to #2? Different serial No or Head Designs or Body shape or anythings?
Good question. I am curious to know that answer as well. Though, they may not have the details sorted out yet.
Maybe Fodera/Jason would poll us to see what the players who don't want to hand select every option of the bass and would like to buy a basic new off the shelf (lower priced) Fodera. I know the NYC line somewhat provides that and I am guessing this new "instock" series would sit between the full blown custom jobs and the NYC's.
My thoughts/wishes would be typical Monarch 4 set-neck, mahogany, flamed/quilt top, EMG's. Emperor 5 bolt-on/set-neck, singles/dual coil, quilt/flamed top. I know Fodera has the numbers on the most commonly ordered specs, but I see those two being two that could be easy to replicate at a cheaper cost.
Maybe Fodera/Jason would poll us to see what the players who don't want to hand select every option of the bass and would like to buy a basic new off the shelf (lower priced) Fodera. I know the NYC line somewhat provides that and I am guessing this new "instock" series would sit between the full blown custom jobs and the NYC's.
My thoughts/wishes would be typical Monarch 4 set-neck, mahogany, flamed/quilt top, EMG's. Emperor 5 bolt-on/set-neck, singles/dual coil, quilt/flamed top. I know Fodera has the numbers on the most commonly ordered specs, but I see those two being two that could be easy to replicate at a cheaper cost.
When Jason explained that singlecuts don't necessarily take more time, and that it's the neck construction and things were priced accordingly, that is when I knew this was all a good thing. Not that I doubted it before.
It would be interesting to see if an 'instock' series that someone besides vinnie and vadym doing most of the work would change things, but some of the 'standard' series don't really do it for me. but i assumed that is what the 'standard' series was for.
It would be interesting to see if an 'instock' series that someone besides vinnie and vadym doing most of the work would change things, but some of the 'standard' series don't really do it for me. but i assumed that is what the 'standard' series was for.
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
- 1,664
- Disclosures
- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
The NYC's will continue to be made in Japan at least for the foreseeable future (3-5 years down the road even they might come back to Brooklyn). The people that we work with in Japan are great and are almost as fanatical about Fodera as we are.
The "stock" instruments would be made in Brooklyn as are and always will be all of the Custom instruments...
Presently Vinny and Vadym completely hand carve every instrument. Things like pick-up covers, fretting, routing, sanding, etc. are done by others in the shop (Joey, Rob and even occasionally yours truly). There is ZERO mechanization in the process at all. By way of example, the body shapes are hand drawn on the wood slabs and then individually cut out on a jig saw -- NOT exactly a streamlined way of doing things. We have already taken in one great new wood worker -- Rob -- since October and will take another person in this summer.
As these new people get up to speed (over a period of years) and expand what they are capable of doing, we will be able to limit the number of tasks that Vinny and Vadym must focus on. By way of example, carving the necks will ALWAYS be done by Vinny and Vadym (or some other luthier who is at the same level, if and when they have proven themselves to Vinny over a period of years). The neck feel of a Fodera is in many ways the heart and soul of the instrument and we know of no way other than hand-carving to allow for the nearly limitless issues presented by working with an infinitely variable material like wood. We want this level of hand detail on EVERY Brooklyn made Fodera, so hand-carving is the only option for us.
However, things like rough shaping of the body slabs, glue-up of tops, creating neck beams, etc., those things will be able to be done by people other than Vinny and Vadym so that they can spend their preciously scarce time on the fine details that make a Fodera a Fodera. Remember that as recently as this past October, over 50% of Vinny and Joey's time was spent managing the business -- that huge time savings that our partnership allows for has already created a significant increase in "production" capacity.
Even with all of these changes, there are NOT going to be a lot of stock instruments because we want them to be built exactly the way all of our instruments are currently built...so we are talking a slow, steady evolution, NOT a revolution in the way we do things. Heck, when we sit around at the end of the day and talk about how "huge" Fodera could get, we're talking in terms of 200 instruments a year!
Simply put, we never want to not know every bass that we make in incredible detail. That's the fun part and what keeps us all driven to get up and go to work.
The "stock" instruments would be made in Brooklyn as are and always will be all of the Custom instruments...
Presently Vinny and Vadym completely hand carve every instrument. Things like pick-up covers, fretting, routing, sanding, etc. are done by others in the shop (Joey, Rob and even occasionally yours truly). There is ZERO mechanization in the process at all. By way of example, the body shapes are hand drawn on the wood slabs and then individually cut out on a jig saw -- NOT exactly a streamlined way of doing things. We have already taken in one great new wood worker -- Rob -- since October and will take another person in this summer.
As these new people get up to speed (over a period of years) and expand what they are capable of doing, we will be able to limit the number of tasks that Vinny and Vadym must focus on. By way of example, carving the necks will ALWAYS be done by Vinny and Vadym (or some other luthier who is at the same level, if and when they have proven themselves to Vinny over a period of years). The neck feel of a Fodera is in many ways the heart and soul of the instrument and we know of no way other than hand-carving to allow for the nearly limitless issues presented by working with an infinitely variable material like wood. We want this level of hand detail on EVERY Brooklyn made Fodera, so hand-carving is the only option for us.
However, things like rough shaping of the body slabs, glue-up of tops, creating neck beams, etc., those things will be able to be done by people other than Vinny and Vadym so that they can spend their preciously scarce time on the fine details that make a Fodera a Fodera. Remember that as recently as this past October, over 50% of Vinny and Joey's time was spent managing the business -- that huge time savings that our partnership allows for has already created a significant increase in "production" capacity.
Even with all of these changes, there are NOT going to be a lot of stock instruments because we want them to be built exactly the way all of our instruments are currently built...so we are talking a slow, steady evolution, NOT a revolution in the way we do things. Heck, when we sit around at the end of the day and talk about how "huge" Fodera could get, we're talking in terms of 200 instruments a year!
Simply put, we never want to not know every bass that we make in incredible detail. That's the fun part and what keeps us all driven to get up and go to work.
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
- 1,664
- Disclosures
- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
Gang, if we cannot do "stock" instruments in a way that has them be of at least equal quality to what we do now AND be totally indistinguishable from the other instruments that we make, we're not going to do them.
It is NOT going to be like, "hey, let's let Jimmy, the new guy, loose in the wood shop and see how well he does with making a Monarch. And, because Jimmy is a little rough around the edges, people will be charged less and thereby forgive a product of slightly inferior quality."
It also won't be like, "Let's use that wood that's nice quite good enough for the real deal on this stock piece because no one will know the difference."
Where the cost savings will come from (and therefore the savings to the customer) are by being able to do the following:
1. Spend zero time working prospectively with a player about what they are trying to get out of the bass before we build it;
2. Spend zero time working with customers choosing specific woods and parts for the stock basses, because we get to have complete control over those choices;
3. Make them in small batches instead of one at a time (it would be MUCH easier to build three basses of a certain kind together rather than doing one of each type at a time the way we do now);
4. Make them to a standard set of specifications rather than constantly varying neck profile, inlays, scale length, electronics layouts, pup choices, etc.
Collectively these seemingly simple things take a TREMENDOUS amount of labor time which equates to cost...make sense?
It is NOT going to be like, "hey, let's let Jimmy, the new guy, loose in the wood shop and see how well he does with making a Monarch. And, because Jimmy is a little rough around the edges, people will be charged less and thereby forgive a product of slightly inferior quality."
It also won't be like, "Let's use that wood that's nice quite good enough for the real deal on this stock piece because no one will know the difference."
Where the cost savings will come from (and therefore the savings to the customer) are by being able to do the following:
1. Spend zero time working prospectively with a player about what they are trying to get out of the bass before we build it;
2. Spend zero time working with customers choosing specific woods and parts for the stock basses, because we get to have complete control over those choices;
3. Make them in small batches instead of one at a time (it would be MUCH easier to build three basses of a certain kind together rather than doing one of each type at a time the way we do now);
4. Make them to a standard set of specifications rather than constantly varying neck profile, inlays, scale length, electronics layouts, pup choices, etc.
Collectively these seemingly simple things take a TREMENDOUS amount of labor time which equates to cost...make sense?
Actually, yeah, and it's a nice breakdown of where you wanted to see a lot of time savings. Question, would something like a VW Monarch fall in that category in the future?
Yes, they do. But, as I said, the pickup is about half-way between the24th fret and the bridge.
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Of course, you cannot sacrifice the name just to get a few more instruments out there. I think everyone who knows Fodera would not expect a "budget" material/craftsmanship instrument to ever come out of Brooklyn or Japan. I think the idea of having a few commonly ordered spec'd basses is a great idea.
Gotcha!!! My bad. I need a nap. I can't count backwards from 28.... yes... I am an idiot!
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
- 1,664
- Disclosures
- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
Yupperdoodles...a prime candidate. However, we're still looking at an easy additional 6-12 months before we are even close to having our backlog into a range where we could start thinking about stock instruments...
- Aug 21, 2008
- 1,168
- 33
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- Endorsing Artist : Fodera Guitars , Harvest fine leather bags & straps
Hy Jason,
what is the delivery time that you have in mind to reach when the back orders have finished ??? Like 9-12 month or sth. like that ?
Because I think I would order a new Bass just at this point because I don't want to wait 1,5-2 years.
Best regards,
Julian
hearing about stock instruments really took me back to the early days of fodera (well, 1985, when i met them).
i played a 6-string bass (first version of the the second aj 6-string bass) of theirs at 1985 namm in anaheim. i called a week or two later, trying to buy it. it was already spoken for.
asked 'em about buying one from them.
we discussed woodsat that point i was into heavy ash for bodies. they said they were doing walnut. i'm, okay, you guys know what you're doing. i got a zebra top with walnut body, rosewood fingerboard. (see the pic)
i thought it WAS stock . . .
now i've had a few basses made with that combo, but it's custom ;-)
i played a 6-string bass (first version of the the second aj 6-string bass) of theirs at 1985 namm in anaheim. i called a week or two later, trying to buy it. it was already spoken for.
asked 'em about buying one from them.
we discussed woodsat that point i was into heavy ash for bodies. they said they were doing walnut. i'm, okay, you guys know what you're doing. i got a zebra top with walnut body, rosewood fingerboard. (see the pic)
i thought it WAS stock . . .
now i've had a few basses made with that combo, but it's custom ;-)
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Just Thumpin, back to the Bona bass. I understand him wanting something lighter so a new bass was made. But not it seems he's having a bass built just like the one he's known for. Why not just play the original one. What's the point of a new identical one?
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