Fodera Club Part IV

[thepontif]

Thanks for the info/thoughts. I'm not overly distressed by some noise if the tone is better; most of the time I've got both pups on anyway. Even on my DC pickups, I keep it in single coil mode when I'm soloing one pickup b/c I feel the tone is purer. I don't understand any of the physics behind the dummy dual coils, but I'll definitely take your word for it.

In the end, I'm concluding that if I put in an order for a new Fodera (should I do it? should I??), it would be with single coils.

While we're on the topic--do exposed poles change the tone?

If you like SC and you have no desire for DC the get SC. There is a downside to DC that you have to accept in order to get their upside. Since the upside means nothing to you, why accept the down side?

Exposed poles do not change the tone, but the top of the PU will be mechanically a bit closer to the strings than the magnet, where if the magnet is protruding it is the highest point on the PU. I don't know if they do radiused poles when the poles are hidden. That's a question for Jason. I really think radiused poles are important...particularly on a 6 string. Also the quarter pound magnet on the C. Seems like most folks opt for one or the other based on feel and cosmetics. It'll only affect sound if you're a guy who keeps your PU's deadly close to the strings.

 

[Joelc73]

I swapped out dual coils and dropped in dummy coils at one point in an Imperial I used to own and was exponentially happier. That's another option you could consider if you're already routed for the duals.

 

[Just Thumpin']

First off, thanks to Mike for diving in on a FAR deeper level than I dare to tread in terms of the physics behind why some of this stuff is happening.

Single vs. Duals is all a question of trade-offs and making the right one for you. I will just restate the obvious and remind everyone that when soloing a single coil pup, the noise is HIGHLY room dependent. I have been in venues where it is barely noticeable and in others where it was downright intolerable...

As for exposed vs. non-exposed poles...we ALWAYS recommend exposed poles unless a player tends to sweat a great deal in which case corrosion can become an issue. The ability to get the poles of the pups (which have staggered heights to mimic the FB radius) evenly close to the strings adds definite value from a tone perspective. Again...it is all about tradeoffs. If you tend to sweat a lot, you are better off not having your pickups rust and need to be replaced every other year...

Cheers,

J

 

[cnltb]

Really the ideal humbucker for someone who likes the single coil sound would be a situation where one coil picked up normally, and the other picked up absolutely NOTHING but noise in exactly the same way that the string sensing coil does. But when you start talking subtleties, that is much, much harder to achieve than you might think...particularly the issue of keeping all of the string sound out of the dummy coil. It seems like the part of sound that still leaks through is the really high end airy stuff...which stands to reason based on how they sound. The airy high end tends to go away in humbuckers because that part of the string vibration is in both coils and is hence being phase cancelled. Then you have the issue of having to mix the two PU's which means a loading situation. Changed impedance characteristics change the basic overall response of the PU. The only way around that is to mix them actively so there is no loading, but that also has it's down sides.

Making a quiet PU that sounds like a single coil PU will always be a compromise in some area. It's like making a watermelon with no seeds. They never taste as good as the ones with seeds because they're inherently different on some level. Single coil PU's make noise, and watermelons have seeds. Is what it is.

So how close do you think stacked humbuckers get in achieving the open tone of a singlecoil,and which design specifics would you regard as being the most critical( type of magnet,strength of the magnet, wire gauge, number of windings, wire material,the wire that leads out from the pick up,etc...)?

 

[TapyTap]

Would be interesting to hear some Q-tuners on a Fodera:

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[jakkkk]

I like watermelon.....

 

[thepontif]

Yeah me too....but the seeds. Los SEEEDS!

 

[thepontif]

First off, thanks to Mike for diving in on a FAR deeper level than I dare to tread in terms of the physics behind why some of this stuff is happening.

Single vs. Duals is all a question of trade-offs and making the right one for you. I will just restate the obvious and remind everyone that when soloing a single coil pup, the noise is HIGHLY room dependent. I have been in venues where it is barely noticeable and in others where it was downright intolerable...

As for exposed vs. non-exposed poles...we ALWAYS recommend exposed poles unless a player tends to sweat a great deal in which case corrosion can become an issue. The ability to get the poles of the pups (which have staggered heights to mimic the FB radius) evenly close to the strings adds definite value from a tone perspective. Again...it is all about tradeoffs. If you tend to sweat a lot, you are better off not having your pickups rust and need to be replaced every other year...

Cheers,

J

So then I'm correct that you don't put radiused PU's in solid covers? I suppose you could, but it would take some extra stuff inside to keep it flat. Something on the ends of the PU to keep it from rocking inside the cover. Problem would become, I suppose, that then your poles would be considerably below the visible surface, making it really hard to get the poles close enough. But it COULD be done.

 

[cnltb]

Wouldn't it then easier to just go for a flat fingerboard with no radius?
I personally do like a no radius board.
...in how far does the radius of a pickup really align with that of a specific board?

 

[Just Thumpin']

No, we DO use the radiused pups in solid covers, however, when we do that, the minimum distance between the poles on the pups and the strings increases fairly significantly (even though the thickness of the wood is small dimensionally, as a percentage function compared to pup covers with holes, it is pretty large).

So then I'm correct that you don't put radiused PU's in solid covers? I suppose you could, but it would take some extra stuff inside to keep it flat. Something on the ends of the PU to keep it from rocking inside the cover. Problem would become, I suppose, that then your poles would be considerably below the visible surface, making it really hard to get the poles close enough. But it COULD be done.

 

[Just Thumpin']

Not close. So much so that we no longer use stacked humbuckers...they just compromise tone too much.

Tonally, in order of preference...

1. Single Coils
2. Dual Coils
3. Lateral Humbuckers (we have been using these for the past 2+ years instead of stacked humbuckers. Although they don't completely cop the single coil tone, they come MUCH closer than stacked humbuckers. The only downside is that they are ALWAYS in humbucking mode.

Cheers,

J

So how close do you think stacked humbuckers get in achieving the open tone of a singlecoil,and which design specifics would you regard as being the most critical( type of magnet,strength of the magnet, wire gauge, number of windings, wire material,the wire that leads out from the pick up,etc...)?

 

[cnltb]

Not close. So much so that we no longer use stacked humbuckers...they just compromise tone too much.

Tonally, in order of preference...

1. Single Coils
2. Dual Coils
3. Lateral Humbuckers (we have been using these for the past 2+ years instead of stacked humbuckers. Although they don't completely cop the single coil tone, they come MUCH closer than stacked humbuckers. The only downside is that they are ALWAYS in humbucking mode.

Cheers,

J

Thanks!
Would it be possible for you to describe the differences from one design to the other?
In terms of tone rather than switch ability.
I'd be interested!

 

[Just Thumpin']

Generally I find descriptions of tone using language to be completely inadequate. One person's "warm" is another's "boomy." Someone's "detailed and precise" is another person's "sterile." Someone's "great mid-range bite" is someone else's "severe."

That said, the best way that I can personally describe the difference between single coils and humbuckers using an analogy that probably every musician is familiar with, is like the difference in sound between a Stratocaster and a Les Paul with the Strat being single coils and the Les Paul humbuckers. One has more cut and bite and the other is almost "creamy and smooth."

In terms of the jazz bass-style pups that we regularly use in the shop, the single coils have the most cut followed by dual coils running in single coil mode followed by lateral humbuckers followed by dual coils in dual coil mode...that is the spectrum from "Strat-like" to "Les Paul-like."

I hope that this makes some kind of sense...

J

The reality is that when it comes to tone there is just no substitute for sitting down with several different instruments and hearing the differences for yourself. There are so many times that a customer describes the tone they are after only to come to the shop and place an order (based on trying several

Thanks!
Would it be possible for you to describe the differences from one design to the other?
In terms of tone rather than switch ability.
I'd be interested!

 

[cnltb]

Yes, that one is obviously the standard analogy, but I didn't make myself clear, sorry.
My question was more regarding the various types of hum cancelling Pickups.
How does the stacked hum bucker compare with the lateral etc ?
Which one for example does least curtail the top and the bottom end and which one tends to scoop the mids least etc?
I am aware that the best one can hope for when describing such things is subjective generalisations, but that's still something... .
Thanks again.

 

[Rich Treat]

Jason,

Where do split coils enter in to this? I've been considering getting the Nordstrand BigSplits.

 

[Just Thumpin']

Sure...in terms of hum canceling pups getting as close to single coil tone as possible, they would go in the following order...

1. Dual Coils in single coil mode;
2. Lateral Humbuckers;
3. Stacked Humbuckers.

Going from #1 to #3 gradually decreases the amount of open, airy, single coil sizzle. Of course, it is very rare that you'll ever have need to compare them side-by-side and I have taken basses with #1 and #2 above out on gigs routinely and been very, very happy with their tone. I would not make that statement for the basses I have played with the stacked humbuckers. I found those pups to do nothing particularly well (other than cancel out hum).

So, are the first two as good as true single coil tone? Nope. Good enough that I will personally take the trade-off 100% of the time to avoid the noise? Yesiree-bob. But that's how the equation of trade-offs works for me. IME and IMHO.

Just remember that Joey's bass has single coils and since he plays with both pups on almost all of the time, the noise is not an issue for him. Different strokes for different folks...

Yes, that one is obviously the standard analogy, but I didn't make myself clear, sorry.
My question was more regarding the various types of hum cancelling Pickups.
How does the stacked hum bucker compare with the lateral etc ?
Which one for example does least curtail the top and the bottom end and which one tends to scoop the mids least etc?
I am aware that the best one can hope for when describing such things is subjective generalisations, but that's still something... .
Thanks again.

 

[cnltb]

Thanks again!
Just to pick up on another post-the one by "tapytap", earlier on...have q-tuners ever been put in a fodera, and if so, what were the results, given hat Q-tuners claim to cop the single coil tone without noise(if I heard/read corectly...)?

 

[KJung]

Sure...in terms of hum canceling pups getting as close to single coil tone as possible, they would go in the following order...

1. Dual Coils in single coil mode;
2. Lateral Humbuckers;
3. Stacked Humbuckers.

Going from #1 to #3 gradually decreases the amount of open, airy, single coil sizzle. Of course, it is very rare that you'll ever have need to compare them side-by-side and I have taken basses with #1 and #2 above out on gigs routinely and been very, very happy with their tone. I would not make that statement for the basses I have played with the stacked humbuckers. I found those pups to do nothing particularly well (other than cancel out hum).

So, are the first two as good as true single coil tone? Nope. Good enough that I will personally take the trade-off 100% of the time to avoid the noise? Yesiree-bob. But that's how the equation of trade-offs works for me. IME and IMHO.

Just remember that Joey's bass has single coils and since he plays with both pups on almost all of the time, the noise is not an issue for him. Different strokes for different folks...

One more bit of info that might help (since I love true single coil pickups). Even though true single coils will hum when solo'd, using a very slight favoring of the neck pickup or bridge pickup (like just a slight 5% turn of the blend knob) results in you getting 80%+ of the solo'd tone with virtually no noise, since the pickups are still slightly hum cancelling each other.

Once you get this technique down, there is virtually NO downside to having true single coils IMO. I was never particularly happy with the 'dual coil' sound in single coil mode... a bit thin (both Seymours and Aeros). However, the Fodera's I've played with the Seymour single coils have sounded marvelous (if, again, you want a more true single coil tone).

IMO, I don't see the hum issue as an issue at all, and only own true single coil basses at this point.

FYI to help the OP with his decision

 

[steubig]

jason, am i correct in assuming that all the pickups used by fodera are based on jazz-bass designs/windings (as opposed to p-bass designs/winding)?

 

[cnltb]

and, just out of interest, what kind of magnets are used in Fodera pickups ?