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Fodera Club Part XXII

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#241
No tone crisis imho. Victor's tone is all over the map and it generally fits what he's trying to do. He isn't your typical bass player thumping on the one. Have you listened to Sword and Stone?

If everyone sounded the same it would be a boring world...

btw, I think you mean "...cue the outrage..." not "queue." Unless you're figuring people are lining up :D
 
#243
pyeweed said:
Hey gang. I thought I'd stir the pot with a controversial blog post I made. Guaranteed to rub some of you the wrong way. :hiding: Now before you go flaming, take a deep breath and remember that tone is absolutely subjective. My colorful hyperbole is mostly for entertainment - it's hard enough to get people to read a whole post! :cool:

Most of the clips I reference are of Fodera basses, so I'm linking here. Curious what people think!

Link Removed
Click to expand...

Too subjective period.:D Fodera and any other bass can sound great to you or me and the reverse to others or the player.

Listen to Geddy Lee's isolated Jazz tone as a great example. Sounds like clanky, trebly crap IMO. Listen to it in a full mix and it is just killer (again IMO).

To each their own.

Apologies for the derail in any case...

But back to all things Fodera. I did confirm I will be ordering a new Fodera Monarch Deluxe 5 fretless in the next week or two. Thanks to Jason and Dave at Ultimate Basses for their patience and guidance! 2014 will be a great bass year for me as my fretted Monarch is slated for a January completion.:hyper:
 
#245
That article was pretty funny. I don't get the Hartke hate (i don't own one).

Also i'm pretty sure that video where you loved the sound of Victor's bass through an Aguilar, that was actually Anthony's amp. I'm pretty sure Anthony has been an endorser forever and that was the tour when Victor was trying out lots of different amps. (It looks like he was using a Warwick there and you're probably hearing the PA.).

All that said, I totally agree about that Bass Club Chicago video!
 
#246
pyeweed said:
Hey gang. I thought I'd stir the pot with a controversial blog post I made. Guaranteed to rub some of you the wrong way. :hiding: Now before you go flaming, take a deep breath and remember that tone is absolutely subjective. My colorful hyperbole is mostly for entertainment - it's hard enough to get people to read a whole post! :cool:

Most of the clips I reference are of Fodera basses, so I'm linking here. Curious what people think!

Link Removed

The TL;DR version: I'm presenting the possibility that so many clips of master musicians/instruments playing with what I consider sub-par tone (for a variety of reasons) could potentially influence a generation of younger players to favor a bad sound.
Click to expand...

hey,

so, i believe there are some inaccuracies in there.

imho, jaco was not the first e-bass virtuoso. look to stanley clarke for that. there were some others probably, but stanley and then jaco were the guys in the early and then mid 70s who took fire. second, jaco's early stuff was with an acoustic 360, afaik. not to belabor the point, but i think you don't have your history correct—which may be a function of age.

re jaco being an a**hole. yeah, he kinda (and i know guys who dealt with it personally) become that way—"cocaine is a hell of a drug." if you read any early interviews with him you'll see he had his head on straight. unfortunately, that didn't last.

at this point i *really* don't like his sound (or the school that he spawned), but i think you had to be there when he first came on the scene to understand. that being said, there were people using the back pickup on jazz basses—even fretlesses—*before* he became widely known.

and lot of guys (phil lesh, jack cassidy, berry oakley, alphonso johnson, doug rauch, etc.) hacked their basses back then—again, it's a history thing. the stock stuff wasn't able to get people wanted. without that, there would be no makers like alembic—and by extension fodera.

re victor, imo, his tone comes straight out of stanley.

and . . . strumming/tapping/slapping are *not* extended tech in my opinion. that's *normal* stuff.

finally, tone is subjective. i don't think chris squire's sound would be good for motown, and jamerson wouldn't sound quite right for yes. somehow they work for what they're doing.
 
#251
pyeweed said:
Hey gang. I thought I'd stir the pot with a controversial blog post I made. Guaranteed to rub some of you the wrong way. :hiding: Now before you go flaming, take a deep breath and remember that tone is absolutely subjective. My colorful hyperbole is mostly for entertainment - it's hard enough to get people to read a whole post! :cool:

Most of the clips I reference are of Fodera basses, so I'm linking here. Curious what people think!

Link Removed

The TL;DR version: I'm presenting the possibility that so many clips of master musicians/instruments playing with what I consider sub-par tone (for a variety of reasons) could potentially influence a generation of younger players to favor a bad sound.
Click to expand...

That particular cello piece is an extreme example, but it's a good reality check IMHO. Tone and art appear to be subjective. The fidelity of a recording is a science and crappy cel phone mics won't do either complete justice.

I liked your blog post and think its cool that there are places for expression on the Internet that do not involve a publisher or record company, etc. for that expression.
 
#252
Thanks for everyone's great comments! Glad to hear all the different sides of the story. I obviously glossed over massive bits of history. Stanley Clarke deserves massive love but I couldn't find any vids of him with bad tone :) Larry Graham probably deserves a piece of that pie, too. I was trying to show sufficient respect for those players before I started criticizing one aspect of their playing.

Interesting you guys should mention the cello player because that was actually one of the things that spawned this conversation. My wife (who plays with the NY Philharmonic) was part of the listening process on much of my "research" and we both had the same opinion. In the classical world I think there is a much narrower notion of what a "good" tone sounds like on a particular instrument. It's almost always full, rich, and something like "dark". To my knowledge the concern is never having a "unique" tone, which is probably a result of playing in a large ensemble and creating a blend. Good tone is also non-negotiable - if you have great technique and bad tone, you'll be outta luck on auditions.

I knew that bit about extended technique would ruffle some feathers. Brass players use something called "multiphonics" on instruments where you basically sing as you buzz. It creates this bizarre drone sound akin to a didgeridoo and its interesting to listen to for about 20 seconds. After that you realize that the final product actually sounds pretty bad. That was my starting point in referring to extended techniques and probably came off as a too self righteous. I'd give my right leg to be able to slap and tap half as well you all!
 
#254
pyeweed said:
Thanks for everyone's great comments! Glad to hear all the different sides of the story. I obviously glossed over massive bits of history. Stanley Clarke deserves massive love but I couldn't find any vids of him with bad tone :) Larry Graham probably deserves a piece of that pie, too. I was trying to show sufficient respect for those players before I started criticizing one aspect of their playing.

Interesting you guys should mention the cello player because that was actually one of the things that spawned this conversation. My wife (who plays with the NY Philharmonic) was part of the listening process on much of my "research" and we both had the same opinion. In the classical world I think there is a much narrower notion of what a "good" tone sounds like on a particular instrument. It's almost always full, rich, and something like "dark". To my knowledge the concern is never having a "unique" tone, which is probably a result of playing in a large ensemble and creating a blend. Good tone is also non-negotiable - if you have great technique and bad tone, you'll be outta luck on auditions.

I knew that bit about extended technique would ruffle some feathers. Brass players use something called "multiphonics" on instruments where you basically sing as you buzz. It creates this bizarre drone sound akin to a didgeridoo and its interesting to listen to for about 20 seconds. After that you realize that the final product actually sounds pretty bad. That was my starting point in referring to extended techniques and probably came off as a too self righteous. I'd give my right leg to be able to slap and tap half as well you all!
Click to expand...

hey,

i guess part of my problem is you say things like this re jaco (and why i mentioned stanley):

"the bass world should forever remember him as the first true virtuoso on the instrument."

and this (more about jaco, who i don't think really did anything of the sort--and i'm not really a jaco fan, to be clear):

"He basically wrote the book on extended technique and reintroduced the bass as a viable solo instrument."

which i consider to be *factually* incorrect.

fwiw, my degree is in classical double bass, so i get what you're saying about tone *from that perspective* . . . but imho, that leave about 80% of the world out of the equation.

what if i think hubert sumlin has a great sound? do i have to compare it to a western classical tradition? what about liking turkish folk music or japanese folk music and thinking about how to get some of those sounds involved?

and really, western classical music's idea of tone is constantly changing--talk to the original instruments people about their theories of tone. why did the cymbal show up in classical music and when?

and extended tech goes way beyond what you're saying. i think it just shows a fairly narrow and dogmatic approach to sound and music. seems like music must've stopped before mahler for you, cause i seem to remember a whole bunch of stuff that could be construed as "extended tech" under your definition (scordatura, flutter tongue, snap pizz, covering a clarinet bell with a cloth, etc.). and then don't even get into anything *after* him.

what you consider bizarre and uninteresting could also be construed as interesting and part of a larger tool box.

slapping and popping is not extended, imho.
 
#255
I can be wrong, but I have never seen Jaco use Hartke, and in the vid you posted, he's using the Acoustic rig. If you can get that tone out of that rig you should get an award. And he didn't wait around for Fodera to start making a great bass. The Hartke VW rig is bright. Like, stare at the sun bright. I have one and don't really use it, because it's too bright. And lastly, I don't understand that some don't like the tone of a certain Fodera. Not picking, just saying I don't get it. Three in and each sounds incredible in it's own way. I know you have to find the sound in your head, but I have never heard a Fodera that I didn't like the tone. But that's just me.
 
#257
Well clearly my abbreviated history of bass players in my blog is rubbing people the wrong way - obviously this wasn't meant to be a history lesson. The 2 - 3 sentences I devoted to those players was simply to indicate that I had a healthy respect for them, so my criticisms were coming from that angle. :crying:

Jaco did definitely play Hartke (you can see his original 8x10 cab at the 34th st Sam Ash store that just opened in NYC). Probably not exclusively. And the reason I reference Hartke multiple times is because (like oldfretless mentioned) they are extremely bright, which is what I think these solo bass tones are leaning too far towards. :hmm:

Most importantly I want to be clear I wasn't in any way bashing Fodera - I just dropped the cost of a car on one and I couldn't be more excited to get it next year. I was using Foderas in my examples because I think the world can agree that they sound "good" (I'd say GREAT) so getting bad sounds out of them is noteworthy (and the point of the blog).

I do stand by my statement that Jaco reintroduced electric bass as a solo instrument. Obviously others came before, but IMHO Donna Lee was the track heard round the world. I'm comfortable saying his solo album changed the game permanently (even though I don't like his tone, at all). Portrait of Tracy is probably the reason I still play bass. But this is all off topic.

I'm interested in the future 6 string standard that may or may not be introduced :) Who has a wish list for what model/body/neck they choose?
 
#258
steubig said:
fwiw, my degree is in classical double bass, so i get what you're saying about tone *from that perspective* . . . but imho, that leave about 80% of the world out of the equation.
Click to expand...

Probably more like 98% if you consider what people actually listen to. And in fact the dogmatic "this is the right way" attitude of some (many?) classical players is part of why the music is irrelevant to much of the world. To be fair though, not just classical - every genre has it's tone/sound nazis.

To me it is orthogonal to what art inherently is about. In the case where the artist has a vision they are trying to realize - more power to them. When a player is trying to fit a mold that has been thrust upon and/or they have bought into...well...
 
#259
The way I see it, each of the bassists mentioned bring a different perspective in terms of tone, technique and groove. We could go on and on about how one artists tonal nirvana could be another's nails on a chalkboard. We all have different perspectives on tone and technique. This diversity of tonal palettes and techniques allow us to create. Some approach the instrument in the context of a solo perspective while others in a more traditional supportive role. Life would be pretty boring with only one way to do something.
 
#260
imho, your abbreviated history has at least one statement which is just flat-out incorrect:

"the bass world should forever remember him as the **first true virtuoso** on the instrument."

not.

"game-changer."

yes. that's would fit.

as far as extended tech, i'm not sure what jaco did in that realm, at least from my definition.

pinch harmonics? maybe, but a million guitar players did that before.

natural harmonics? been used since at least mahler's time on string instruments. chris squire (the fish) used them before portrait of tracy. furthering their use by using more of the string's natural overtones? he undoubtedly did.

i think there's a hagiography about jaco that is best left in the dust.

to your point about tone and bass players, yeah, i dislike about 90% of what i hear--and some of that aligns with your criticism.

i also think most guys have awful vibrato.
 
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