Fodera vs other high end basses

[iwearpumas]

Speaking from someone who works, and lives in NYC, it is not cheap. I applaud them for paying their employees a livable wage with health benefits. Granted, it would be easier if they just move to a shop in the mountains like Smith and Tobias, but that is something they don't want nor have to do.

 

[KJung]

Speaking from someone who works, and lives in NYC, it is not cheap. I applaud them for paying their employees a livable wage with health benefits. Granted, it would be easier if they just move to a shop in the mountains like Smith and Tobias, but that is something they don't want nor have to do.

This also supports the premise that there is almost a zero correlation between the price of an instrument and the 'quality' of that instrument once you get past that $3K mark. Much of that 'additional money' goes to 'non product' parts of the balance sheet. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Once you get to the MTD, Roscoe, Ken Smith, FBAss, Fodera level of instrument, it is a pure 'tonal and feel' choice, and the price differences are due to other things.

Again, regarding the OP's question, in no way is Fodera the 'best instrument' because it is the most expensive instrument. If you have had the honor and good luck to own all or most of the instruments being talked about here, you will realize the primary difference among these instruments is not quality of components or workmanship, but rather design goals and aesthetics. And the primary difference in price has to do with marketing and awareness (that drives demand), and to a smaller extent, location/salaries,etc.

 

[Eminor3rd]

This also supports the premise that there is almost a zero correlation between the price of an instrument and the 'quality' of that instrument once you get past that $3K mark. Much of that 'additional money' goes to 'non product' parts of the balance sheet. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Once you get to the MTD, Roscoe, Ken Smith, FBAss, Fodera level of instrument, it is a pure 'tonal and feel' choice, and the price differences are due to other things.

Again, regarding the OP's question, in no way is Fodera the 'best instrument' because it is the most expensive instrument. If you have had the honor and good luck to own all or most of the instruments being talked about here, you will realize the primary difference among these instruments is not quality of components or workmanship, but rather design goals and aesthetics. And the primary difference in price has to do with marketing and awareness (that drives demand), and to a smaller extent, location/salaries,etc.

Excellent post.

 

[WoodyG3]

Speaking from someone who works, and lives in NYC, it is not cheap. I applaud them for paying their employees a livable wage with health benefits. Granted, it would be easier if they just move to a shop in the mountains like Smith and Tobias, but that is something they don't want nor have to do.

Maybe a master luthier could set up shop in an inexpensive-to-live-in island nation and offer $1000 Fodera quality instruments...



Really, though, it is good that there are small businesses that can survive and even thrive while maintaining high quality standards.

 

[nostatic]

Once you get to the MTD, Roscoe, Ken Smith, FBAss, Fodera level of instrument, it is a pure 'tonal and feel' choice, and the price differences are due to other things.

Again, regarding the OP's question, in no way is Fodera the 'best instrument' because it is the most expensive instrument. If you have had the honor and good luck to own all or most of the instruments being talked about here, you will realize the primary difference among these instruments is not quality of components or workmanship, but rather design goals and aesthetics. And the primary difference in price has to do with marketing and awareness (that drives demand), and to a smaller extent, location/salaries,etc.

One factor you're leaving out - build options and the experience/ability of the builders to execute them. Roscoe and Sadowsky are fine instruments (I've owned 3 of each of them) - but not if you want a dovetail or neck through build. Same with a number of other often cited higher end builders. Part of the price of admission is paying for Vinny's ability to conceive and execute an incredibly diverse range of instrument builds.

 

[KJung]

One factor you're leaving out - build options and the experience/ability of the builders to execute them. Roscoe and Sadowsky are fine instruments (I've owned 3 of each of them) - but not if you want a dovetail or neck through build. Same with a number of other often cited higher end builders. Part of the price of admission is paying for Vinny's ability to conceive and execute an incredibly diverse range of instrument builds.

IMO, no real difference from these other builders. Mike Tobias, Keith Roscoe, etc. They all have different approaches for sure. Having owned all these instruments also, I see no 'better or worse' at all among any of them. All allow a lot of customization if you want it. Again, if you want something specific that only Fodera can do for you, that is a very good reason to go that route (assuming you like the overall feel, tone and look). This is also true for the other 8-10 top luthiers/builders in the business.

Again, sometimes it is hard to separate 'a bass that works well for me' with 'the best bass on the market' Those are two VERY different concepts.

 

[fuzzychaos]

... Again, sometimes it is hard to separate 'a bass that works well for me' with 'the best bass on the market' Those are two VERY different concepts.

^^^This^^^

There just isn't any reality in using the term "best" bass as it is completely subjective.

As far as ability, I would be hard pressed to say that Fodera is any "better" than other world class builders like Mike Tobias, Keith Roscoe, Jens Ritter and others. They all make exceptional instruments and give you a wide array of options, including the type of neck builds.

I wish that I could justify a Fodera or any build from one of those master luthiers and if I could, I would be more than happy to pay the price of admission.

 

[nostatic]

IMO, no real difference from these other builders. Mike Tobias, Keith Roscoe, etc. They all have different approaches for sure. Having owned all these instruments also, I see no 'better or worse' at all among any of them. All allow a lot of customization if you want it. Again, if you want something specific that only Fodera can do for you, that is a very good reason to go that route (assuming you like the overall feel, tone and look). This is also true for the other 8-10 top luthiers/builders in the business.

Again, sometimes it is hard to separate 'a bass that works well for me' with 'the best bass on the market' Those are two VERY different concepts.

Actually no problem separating the two - hence why I usually qualify my opinions with something being the best *for me*.

That said, it is not opinion to state that at least a few of the boutique builders mentioned in this thread as being "equivalent" to Fodera in fact do not produce as wide a variety of builds on a regular basis. They are predominantly bolt-on construction, and some only do 4 and 5-string variants of a bolt-on. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but is is another factor that plays into the equation.

With Roscoe, Sadowsky, MTD, you do not see a variety of single-cutaway, double-cutaway, bolt-on, dovetail, neck-through, 4, 5, 6-string, etc. Again, I'm not claiming that is better or worse, but it certainly is a point of differentiation. That is a tangible difference.

 

[KJung]

Actually no problem separating the two - hence why I usually qualify my opinions with something being the best *for me*.

That said, it is not opinion to state that at least a few of the boutique builders mentioned in this thread as being "equivalent" to Fodera in fact do not produce as wide a variety of builds on a regular basis. They are predominantly bolt-on construction, and some only do 4 and 5-string variants of a bolt-on. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but is is another factor that plays into the equation.

With Roscoe, Sadowsky, MTD, you do not see a variety of single-cutaway, double-cutaway, bolt-on, dovetail, neck-through, 4, 5, 6-string, etc. Again, I'm not claiming that is better or worse, but it certainly is a point of differentiation. That is a tangible difference.

+1 Just using those names as examples. Carey Nordstrand, Pete Skjold, Stambaugh, etc. offer most or all the options you mention.

Again, different ways of reaching excellence. Again, just addressing the OP's post, since many who aren't that familiar with these brands sometimes think 'well, twice (or in some cases, three times) as expensive, must be the best'. That is absolutely not the case.

 

[Phil Smith]

Actually no problem separating the two - hence why I usually qualify my opinions with something being the best *for me*.

That said, it is not opinion to state that at least a few of the boutique builders mentioned in this thread as being "equivalent" to Fodera in fact do not produce as wide a variety of builds on a regular basis. They are predominantly bolt-on construction, and some only do 4 and 5-string variants of a bolt-on. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but is is another factor that plays into the equation.

With Roscoe, Sadowsky, MTD, you do not see a variety of single-cutaway, double-cutaway, bolt-on, dovetail, neck-through, 4, 5, 6-string, etc. Again, I'm not claiming that is better or worse, but it certainly is a point of differentiation. That is a tangible difference.

Cherry picking the few names that were mentioned and comparing them doesn't really make your point. If you look at Ken Smith basses you have a pretty diverse product line that covers number of strings, bolt on, neck thru, models that balance for sitting vs standing and wood choices. Fit and finish is right on par with a Fodera. The same can be said about Stuart Spector. Personally, I don't think any builder does more variety of builds than Alembic and they've been doing LEDs at lease since the 80's and then there's the series electronics.

 

[Jared Lash]

I am sure Fodera gets several customers each year (or even each month) who go to them because they perceive them to be the most expensive basses and therefore the best. But that's true with cars, watches, knives, bicycles, coffee grinders, hell even homebrewing equipment.

But by and large, bassists buy Foderas because they are fantastic instruments.

Speaking from someone who works, and lives in NYC, it is not cheap. I applaud them for paying their employees a livable wage with health benefits. Granted, it would be easier if they just move to a shop in the mountains like Smith and Tobias, but that is something they don't want nor have to do.

Yes, Fodera and Sadowsky would have much, much lower overhead costs if rather than NYC (Brooklyn & Long Island respectively) they were based somewhere more remote. But the often overlooked flip side to that is that is that they also wouldn't have the same access to world class players and the invaluable feedback they provide. While appealing to different markets (broadly speaking that's jazz guys for Fodera and rock/pop for Sadowsky) they both greatly benefit from the symbiotic relationships they have with gigging and recording bassists.

That said, it is not opinion to state that at least a few of the boutique builders mentioned in this thread as being "equivalent" to Fodera in fact do not produce as wide a variety of builds on a regular basis. They are predominantly bolt-on construction, and some only do 4 and 5-string variants of a bolt-on. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but is is another factor that plays into the equation.

With Roscoe, Sadowsky, MTD, you do not see a variety of single-cutaway, double-cutaway, bolt-on, dovetail, neck-through, 4, 5, 6-string, etc. Again, I'm not claiming that is better or worse, but it certainly is a point of differentiation. That is a tangible difference.

Definitely a point of differentiation as well as one of branding.

Fodera certainly offers more options to their customers in an attempt to craft the individual instrument they want. And while MTD and Sadowsky aren't inflexible, they certainly follow a more strict recipe with their instruments. The tradeoff is a much more signature tone vs the flexibility that Fodera offers.

As you said, not better or worse but a choice that those builders have made.

+1 Just using those names as examples. Carey Nordstrand, Pete Skjold, Stambaugh, etc. offer most or all the options you mention.

I'm an unabashed Stambaugh fan but I think I can objectively say that no builder takes on as many varied projects as Chris. He's told me that he thinks his willingness to do so many different types of builds is what has kept him in business when times get lean. But as I mentioned above, the trade off is that there is no specific idea of what a Stambaugh bass (or guitar) is.

All of these things are trade offs. And as interesting as these types of conversations are, at the end of the day all that really matters is that builders can produce enough instruments and sell them at prices that let them stay afloat in a business that has very small margins.

That last bit is pretty much universally true by the way. I think people (even those that express the most outrage at their prices) would be surprised to see the end of year profits for Fodera. Nobody builds boutique basses to get rich. They do it because they have a passion and a skillset for it.

Whether their products are "worth it" to you is something each consumer has to decide.

 

[Ryan L.]

Again, sometimes it is hard to separate 'a bass that works well for me' with 'the best bass on the market' Those are two VERY different concepts.

Quoted for truth.

Whether their products are "worth it" to you is something each consumer has to decide.

Very true as well.

 

[awilkie84]

Actually no problem separating the two - hence why I usually qualify my opinions with something being the best *for me*.

That said, it is not opinion to state that at least a few of the boutique builders mentioned in this thread as being "equivalent" to Fodera in fact do not produce as wide a variety of builds on a regular basis. They are predominantly bolt-on construction, and some only do 4 and 5-string variants of a bolt-on. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but is is another factor that plays into the equation.

With Roscoe, Sadowsky, MTD, you do not see a variety of single-cutaway, double-cutaway, bolt-on, dovetail, neck-through, 4, 5, 6-string, etc. Again, I'm not claiming that is better or worse, but it certainly is a point of differentiation. That is a tangible difference.

While it's nice to have a variety in your line-up, there's something to be said for a consistent image that is recognizable at a glance. Sadowsky, Lakland...these guys don't have that, as they're virtually copies of Fender bolt-ons. Fodera, I have to look at the headstock inlay because the bodies vary a fair bit from model to model. Heck, I almost mistook that new Ibanez BTB single cut for a Fodera at first glance. The only one I can outright say is a Fodera at a glance is the YY.

A Spector, I can tell you it's a Spector from the body alone (No headstock shape or logos to give it away). Their body shape is a signature unto itself. Yes, I realize Warwick Streamers use the same design, but it's not hard to note the differences between the 2 even at a quick glance.

They have 4, 5, 6 & 8 string models. They have 3 bodies styles they use. The NS (which is 90% of what they make), the Coda (their J-bass clone), and the NS-2000 (used only on the Spectorcore semi-hollow models). They also offer Bolt-on, Neck-thru & select Set-neck options.

 

[bass12]

Excellent post.

+1.

 

[nostatic]

If you look at Ken Smith basses you have a pretty diverse product line that covers number of strings, bolt on, neck thru, models that balance for sitting vs standing and wood choices. Fit and finish is right on par with a Fodera.

fwiw in my (albeit limited) experience, that isn't the case. And if you want to add customer service into the mix, well…

A Spector, I can tell you it's a Spector from the body alone (No headstock shape or logos to give it away). Their body shape is a signature unto itself.

True, but in that case you either love or hate the body and the associated ergonomics.

There isn't a single right answer - it is up to the individual to determine the value proposition. But many are quick to say, "oh, xxx is just as good as yyy" when in fact there are factors that aren't equivalent between builders.

I can say that for me, the Fodera necks have consistently been the best for my hands, with Carey's a close second. Other builders create necks that are nice but not sublime like those two. Again, to me, my hands, my playing style. I could give a laundry list of reasons why I sold the couple dozen boutiques that passed through my hands in the past few years, but that list would be largely personal bias based on my playing goals. That said, the idea of a 21-fret bolt-on "Fender inspired" bass is something that I don't really consider any more (at least today - ask me again tomorrow ). And in fact I've pretty much given up on having *any* bass top my Yin Yang Deluxe. Even another Fodera. Jason and I have talked about this. Sometimes you find an instrument that for whatever reasons, just speaks to you. And then if you try to replicate that you're invariably not going to hit it. At least that is my experience in going through a bunch of really nice basses. Towards that end, perhaps there is something to be said for the boutique builders who do limit their build scope. I can say that the Sadowskys I owned were all very consistently good. They just didn't scratch the same itch my YYD does. As always, ymmv.

 

[Phil Smith]

fwiw in my (albeit limited) experience, that isn't the case. And if you want to add customer service into the mix, well…

You need only visit their website to see what they offer(you seem to be typing stuff for the sake of typing ). As for customer service; Ken Smith gets knocked a lot for being prickly but I haven't heard of a story where he's held on to someones bass for over a year before doing the work that was desired or taking parts off of someones bass and putting them on someone else's or losing a part.

 

[nostatic]

You need only visit their website to see what they offer(you seem to be typing stuff for the sake of typing ).

I was talking about the quality, not selection (though the web site is quite bad since you mention it). A brand new Smith ( as in this year) I purchased had uneven seams on the back of the neck. The response from Ken was "wood moves!" Um, ok. I sent it back at a loss. Stark contrast to current Fodera customer service. I don't have any experience with their past so I can't comment on that but some people seem to love to piss on them for things that happened a decade or two ago.

No builder is perfect. A key point for me is how they react to issues. In my personal experience over the past few years, Fodera has been great. As have a number of other builders.

 

[iwearpumas]

You sold it back to him?

 

[nostatic]

No, went back to the dealer.

 

[iwearpumas]

I hope you got your money back. I hate that excuse "wood moves."